Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

You know you've got camo on the brain when you start seeing...

Attachment 95249

Hi Tony

Your brain is pretty sharp, I've wondered if it was possible to match colors from nature in those B&W war time photos by matching to trees and other natural objects in the background.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

I've wondered if it was possible to match colors from nature in those B&W war time photos by matching to trees and other natural objects in the background.

Phil, I put your idea to the test with some photoshop work. Results are pretty conclusive I reckon, Vehicle Light Grey on both these gun tractors. This colour makes sense for South Eastern Australia where grey gums feature prominently in the landscape, particularly along the roadside where vehicles could take advantage of the cover they provide during stops. Presumably that was Young’s thinking when he developed this colour for NSW.


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[Lang]

Tony

Your photos show that the Australian bush is basically grey and that was a good choice in the mix for that area.

They got it right with the Vietnam era plain olive drab. This is well over into the grey side from green. Absolutely outstanding camouflage for Australian conditions.

Lang

[Lang]

Even 70 years later they still can't get it right.

Disruptive patches on vehicles but half the total vehicle surface area of canvas has computer generated digital pattern. If CSIRO were so good it must be one or the other (or something else) for the optimal design.

Camouflage can never be anything but totally subjective as a result of human observation so it is always about opinion.

[Tony Wheeler]

Lang, what are your thoughts on the 1980's camo scheme adopted in Australia? Does this scheme have a particular name? Steve Taubert writes: “It was during the 1980’s that the Army again introduced vehicle camouflage, inititally on a trial basis on vehicles in Townsville, North Queensland. After consultation with CSIRO a new camouflage pattern was introduced not only for vehicles but uniforms as well.”

It looks quite effective in terrain where bare earth features prominently. Interestingly this 1980’s scheme trialled in North Queensland is virtually identical to First Aust Army scheme developed in Queensland 1942. This scheme was initiated by Major Cann GSO III (Cam) on 14 July 42 as a variation of Mech Circ 301 Set 2 ( Light Green H / Khaki Green J / Night Black U ): “Propose adopting colour combination 2 substituting Light Earth for Light Green as latter tends to fade.”

The new scheme was adopted 31 August 42 and paint was ordered the following day, but supply was delayed due to unsuitable DHS paint spec, which by now had proven worthless for vehicle application, and was subsequently withheld pending development of Army standard colours and paint specs.

Meanwhile in NSW the highly resourceful Major Young developed his own vehicle paint specs directly with B.A.L.M. Chief Chemist in Sydney, completely bypassing NSW Paints Control committee, which he dismissed with some contempt:

“A Paint Manufacturers Committee operates in Sydney but specifications are prepared by Standards Association. The underlying object of all these Committees appears to be to have adopted the specification or type of material which suits the members best.”

So Young got his vehicle spec paint from long time Army supplier B.A.L.M., and come November his scheme was adopted by 2 Aust Corps and is seen on their carriers in Sydney “Miles of Munitions” parade 12 Dec 42. Queensland however were not convinced, particularly Brig. Mann, Chief Engineer First Aust Army and later NG Force, who took an active interest in vehicle camouflage but unlike Dakin and Young was not sold on disruptive theory:

“It is considered that better concealment will be obtained by painting vehs to match possible backgrounds rather than by painting in a disruptive pattern. Disruption is all right in theory but does not work out in practice.”

Mann rejected the proposed Army standard camo scheme in favour of single colour Khaki Green, but was outvoted 9 to 2 in Jan 43 survey of all Commands, the other dissenter being WA L. of C. Area. This vote paved the way for adoption of SM4809 in March 43 stipulating 3 camouflage colours only, which by Oct 43 was further reduced to 2 colours only, and subsequently abandoned completely. Then 40 years later we see Major Cann's scheme reintroduced!


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[Lang]

Tony

A couple of interesting things in your post.

Way back at the beginning of this thread there was discussion about the camouflage committee. I think I annoyed some people by commenting how it was made up of the manufacturers whose interest was forming a supply cartel, upping prices and controlling the paint game. The government supply people went along with it and the army said they did not care so long as the paint came from "somewhere".!

Young's thoughts are exactly on my wave length.

I also related how I was involved in selecting the new camouflage scheme for the army, flying observer groups around in circles for a couple of weeks near Oakey. We looked at APC's painted in 6 or 7 , possibly more, different colour schemes from all directions and light conditions. As I said, the Vietnam era plain green won hands down in nearly all circumstances but they had an agenda!

At that stage there was a feeling that camouflage of uniforms and vehicles looked more marshal and warlike, even giving the illusion troops dressed like that appeared as "elite" forces. Not entirely, but in part, the whole camouflage business was driven by fashion.

The new colours have a name but I can't recall it - Austcam? As your photos show and I commented, there is still no standard pattern with a mix of computer generated and colour patch designs (although the colours seem to be of a limited variety)

The great god CSIRO is not infallible and particularly on tasks requiring subjective opinion possibly less than perfect. Just like Dakin they are made up from scientists most of whom do not have a practical bone in their body or any experience of actually using their product in the field. They are a great organisation but I think they could have been equaled or bettered by a group actually experienced in the subject. How come of the 190 armies in the world not two of them have the same camouflage schemes!


Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Lang

Back in the 80s our local MV club played games with a squadron of Air National Guard A10s. One the guys in the club worked for or was a part of the Unit. When we would have Club events out in Western Massachusetts we would go out and play on the fire roads in the woods with a convoy of 10-20 military vehicles. The pilots would be given the general area and when we would be in the woods. We were trail riding in an area where the A-10s were cleared for low level flight, ie unpopulated. They were also given maps of all the woods roads we might be playing on. Solid overhead tree cover makes OD MVs hard to spot. At the time I don't think any of the MVs in the club were camouflaged.

The only times they found us was once on the highway heading for the woods and once when we were all parked in a field. They did find us in the woods once when they caught us in an area that had been logged. We ould hear them circling tryin to find us. We knew when they found us as they would make low level passes over us in simulated attack runs. The latter did cause a problem as the time they found us on the field, field was outside their training area on the edge of a town. We played this game half a dozen times. Will have to dig out the photos. Did get to meet some of the piolets when we displayed our trucks at an airshow on their base.

Apparently the squadron preffered plying with us to playing the same game with actual Guard Units as we didn't give them a hard time if they did find us.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lang

The new colours have a name but I can't recall it - Austcam? As your photos show and I commented, there is still no standard pattern with a mix of computer generated and colour patch designs (although the colours seem to be of a limited variety)

Lang

There is a standard pattern published for 4x4 LR, 6x6 LR, Mog, Mack, etc, but it is not recommended to be slavishly replicated on each vehicle, it is more a guideline. Minor variations from vehicle are seen to be beneficial in contributing to disruption.

The scheme, or at least the colours involved does seem to work well in Australian environments ranging from Cultana Range or Woomera in SA, up to Cairns and Mossman in FNQ.