Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mike K]

Has Tony been searching the NAA web site ?

I have . This late 1942 document is revealing to say the least .

In effect ,the paint manufacturers are saying to the Govt. Even if we share our paint formulas , there is no guarantee the outcome will be a standard colour

I hope the link works .

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...367640&T=P&S=7

more info

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...aspx?B=3367640

[Lang]

Here are some photos out of the Holden book taken at GMH factories in Australia. Looks like 3 different colour schemes.

Lang

[Lang]

Mike

There is a lot more to that letter than first appears. They don't say colour can not be standard but "quality" with reference to bad service on fibro buildings.

Who was on this deputation - I bet it was the big operators. They are wanting the Paint Manufacturers "union" (Australian Camouflage Paint Committee) to be able to allocate orders to various manufacturers ie amongst themselves, not the Government supply agency, who merely will give them the requirement.

Under today's laws I think the ACCC might be having a close look at corporate collusion and cartel activity. Vehicle paint is just a drop in the bucket, we are talking about millions of gallons for buildings, ships, equipment and structures as well.

The little remark at the end about lowest tenderer is a non-too subtle attempt to allow them to jack up prices.

It is all dressed up in patriotic language but a cynical view might be that the centralization of paint supply in the hands of the suppliers, not the government, may or may not improve quality but it would certainly allow the manufacturers to place huge group orders with component suppliers for better prices ("we are the only show in town now so you must give us a deal because there is nobody else to sell to"). It also would give the cartel the ability to force the little guys to toe the line on selling price or they would not get any orders allocated to them.

They suggested a fixed price. What would that be? Of course it would be the price the expert Paint Manufacturers Association recommended to the government purchasing people, while weeping about cutting cost to the bone.

I can see why the military and government supply people went along with the idea to have the paint manufacturers regulate the whole paint supply business, it made things easier all around. Meanwhile the paint companies' profits climbed. Wars are expensive things.

The letter from the Army to the minister basically, but very politely, said "We don't give a rat's where it comes from so long as it comes and it is the responsibility of the supply chain"

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Here are some photos out of the Holden book taken at GMH factories in Australia. Looks like 3 different colour schemes.

Lang

Hi Lang,
I would think that the Bedford QL is actually in the UK camouflage pattern as it left the factory in Luton, as the WD Census number on the door is painted over it. Other photos of these gun tractors in Australian service have their own numbers applied.

Richard

[Jacques Reed]

Good Day All,

It has been very informative following this active thread after it has been relatively quiet for a while.

Makes you realize even something as simple as the supply of paint in wartime can have a great background story to it. The conflict between different organizations in particular.

Just a quick aside, since this is a Canadian forum, attached is a roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern. It is shown wet from being washed down after I obtained it so the colours are more vibrant than when it was dry.

Look forward to more info coming to light via this thread.

Cheers,

[Keith Webb]

Here's something similar but a bit more weathered on a piece of cab 12. What is evident is the brush strokes on the disruptive colour.

[Mike K]

This is the two green camo on the side of the Morris PU. The yellow desert paint has mostly fallen off and only little bits are left .

The blue/grey is the paint Lanes Motors applied , its mostly gone .

The C8 I bought in 1981, had the camo on the roof, a green and what looked like a brush applied black or very dark grey

[Mike K]

This is a good read . From around 1980 , it is aimed at US restorers but there are a few helpful tips for most MV restorers.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jacques Reed

roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern.

Indeed it is Jacques – Khaki Green No.3 with Light Earth disruptive applied in production. As shown previously these were Dulux 21-line finishes supplied in Australia by B.A.L.M. and their Adelaide subsidiary United Australasian Paint Co. Thanks for posting this image which illustrates so well the extreme durability of these military spec alkyd enamel finishes.

In terms of vehicle numbers and types this was by far the most extensively used camouflage scheme of the war, and although it was superseded in March ’43 under SM 4809, instructions were that vehicles already camouflaged were not to be repainted unless moving into operational areas. Hence we commonly see vehicles still in this scheme late in the war. Rarely however do we get to see the roof pattern! I’ve not seen pattern charts for Cab 13 but they appear to have been based on existing Cab 12 patterns.

Cheers!


Dulux 21-line finishes.jpg

Mech. Circ. 319 disruptive pattern charts 1-12.jpg

Mech Circ 319 CMP pattern charts (Medium).jpg

Mech Circ 319 pattern charts Jacques roof.jpg

064333 RYDE, NSW. 1944-02-09. FIRE TENDERS AND 3-TON GS TRUCKS AT 3RD ORDNANCE VEH PARK..JPG

[Mike Cecil]

Sorry Mike Cecil I thought a direct link to the file was quickest of all [only if it works reliably, which it didn't, as I was downloading on a slow system in backwoods Montana, and it wouldn't complete the task. Not everyone is connected on a quick system (see Tony Wheeler's post below, for example). By going direct to the NAA site and tapping in the barcode, I was able to look at the on-line copy, not download the large pdf which was the link you provided]

I will pop the bar code in it for you none the less. [thank you]

I thought paying the 245 bucks to put it on line and supplying the link was generous enough ...... [actually, the $245 was to have the file copied so you could see it on line, rather than having to travel to Canberra to look at it. The generous part was telling us where it was, which I and I'm sure others appreciate. All files, once a copy request is received by NAA, are placed on line at the requester's expense, like it or not.

And have you considered that the file was already open [O] and not 'NYE', so you were able to order it and have it copied without the 3 month delay while it was examined and cleared? You can thank me for that: I had it cleared in the 1970s or 80s, long before Recordsearch came along (it's entry in my research index is P98, so very early in my research of that topic).

Good luck with your book, Gina, I'll look forward to reading it.

Mike

[Lang]

Tony

That shot of the vehicles lined up must be new ones as they look like they have been painted with a template absolutely identical.

In Gina's file there is a letter from Dakin berating the RAAF for not following the plan. He actually says "Your vehicles are very, very (twice)bad" and "they are not just wiggly lines but well thought out designs to disguise corners and shapes"

There are quite a few similar letters (much correspondence would never have made it on to that consolidated central file) and he must have got so frustrated with them that the North East Commander made him go away by declaring the RAAF would not use any camouflage other than plain green.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

To be fair on Gina/Jane, Tony, she went back to post 376 and inserted the barcode when I asked for it. As I said earlier, providing the link on the forum so we would all know it was available on line was generous of her.

For those who may not use or know the NAA system, the barcode is the unique identifier for each file. Going to the Advanced Search display provides a place to put the barcode in if it is known - much quicker and easier than typing in all the series number, etc.

I use them a lot now, keeping a list for each project that I can quickly refer to. The current project has some 300 files listed, mostly in series B2455, so you can see it can be quite a time saver in calling up files once the barcode is known.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

To be fair on Gina/Jane, Tony, she went back to post 376 and inserted the barcode when I asked for it.

Thanks Mike, I wouldn’t have noticed if you hadn’t told me. I’ve deleted my post accordingly.
Cheers,
Tony

[Mrs Vampire]

Well Thanks for that Mike Cecil

Here am I thinking I am doing this for the good of all but it turns out I am just doing it to save myself a trip To Canberra . And as for having documents cleared I have done a bit of that too

Well with that that's me out if it I've had enough

[Lang]

Tony

A lot of the trainers were all, or mostly fabric. Even the most advanced aircraft at that time had fabric control surfaces which require dope not paint. The engine cowls on Tiger Moths, Ansons, Wirraways etc used paint but often the whole lot was just hit with dope which is not a perfect coating for those surfaces.

I think you might be right about using the standard paint on metal surfaces. It certainly was not long lasting as you can see from colour aircraft photos. Aircraft always got scruffy quickly until the advent of two pack paints in 70/80 period.

Lang

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For your information:

I was requested to reset the user name to Jane Doe - see the reason below.

Hanno
MLU Administrator

Originally Posted by Jane Doe

Well Thanks for that Mike Cecil

Here am I thinking I am doing this for the good of all but it turns out I am just doing it to save myself a trip To Canberra . And as for having documents cleared I have done a bit of that too

Well with that that's me out if it I've had enough

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Has Tony been searching the NAA web site ?

Not lately Mike. I downloaded some files after Gina posted the links here, but that was over two years ago. I’ve studied them over time so I’m quite familiar with most of them.

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have . This late 1942 document is revealing to say the least .

Yes it’s in one of the files I downloaded. It may be one that Gina arranged to have scanned. The minutes of the paint meeting make for interesting reading.

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

In effect ,the paint manufacturers are saying to the Govt. Even if we share our paint formulas , there is no guarantee the outcome will be a standard colour

Well, the colour must be correct when supplied, ie. match the colour chip held by purchasing authorities, otherwise it would be rejected. That’s all we’re interested in here – the INITIAL colour applied to the vehicle. Obviously there were problems with fading, which are well documented, eg. following comments from HQ First Army in late ‘42:

“None of the camflg paints used have been found durable, regardless of the make. All colours fade in 6 months, some fade in 4 weeks. The quality of the paints is in fact so poor that from a concealment point of view it would be better if the vehs were left the original khaki green as they come from the factory.”

That’s why Army sought to have camo applied during production, using their own military spec paint, ie. Dulux 21-line alkyd enamel. DHS spec was worthless, as the meeting clearly shows, and Dakin’s postwar report records:

“Copies of the original Australian paint specifications are appended. They proved almost useless in practice. A revision of the Flat Oil Paint specification in February, 1943 should indicate the difficulties of achieving satisfactory results under the first specifications.”

Also:

“An account has already been given of the meetings in Sydney and Melbourne which led to the issue of Colour Standards and Specifications. The colour Standards remained as permanent features of value, but the Specifications turned out to be almost useless. It was found that even keeping within the specifications the quality of the paint made by different firms varied exceedingly.”

In view of our present quest I find Dakin’s words quite prophetic: “The colour Standards remained as permanent features of value.”

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I hope the link works .

Yep, worked for me.