How To: Restore a Morris or keep fit

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by T Creighton

It looks like a 3 1/2 x 4 7/16 x 3/8 conventional seal could fit instead of the felt seal and it's retainer ring, but the seal lip would only just bear on the journal of the distance piece.
Machining the flange on the distance piece could allow the seal to move out a bit but then it may be not far enough inside the hub bore.
It would be a gamble to alter a distance piece to find it did not work.
If I could find some new felt rings I would stick to that system.
Terry.

Yes I see the problem. The same design is used on the CS8 . Ideally the distance piece journal should be extended , but how. A new distance piece could be machined up but that is not a easy solution. Just realised the journal cannot be extended !

The felt rings on mine were all leaking and some quantity of oil/grease got onto the backing plates . The linings themselves were not affected . OVERFILLING OF THE DIFF WOULD BE A DISASTER ..

[Mike K]

The chassis, rims and other bits are back from the local sandblaster . BTW the FORD LP2A ? MG carrier, the blaster had this stored , has been sold to somebody in Melbourne recently, it needs a lot of work done.

The chassis on the Morris CS8 is a flimsy affair. With the axles/springs removed , the chassis wobbles around like a lump of jelly. I can lift the chassis up and flip it over , try doing that with a blitz chassis and your chiropractor will be smiling all the way to the bank. Being a 4x2, the designers may have opted for a 'walking chassis' allowing for the rough terrain ?

[Mike K]

Been working on the Morris engine, it's a 3.5 litre side valve, a engine pinched from the contemporary 1930's Morris 25HP saloon with a few ancillaries changed around eg carby and stuff

I obtained a set of NOS +20 thou pistons years ago, so this particular engine is getting a rebore soon. I came to the dreaded job of removing the head studs in the block OH dear ... this type of job has hidden dangers and any number of things can go wrong .

Being of sound mind Hmmm I decided to make my own stud puller .

The wedge is a piece of square section file , it has been ground to a taper . The puller has been used with success ! The wedge teeth grab the stud and the more turning force you add, the wedge will pull itself in, self locking

Heat the stud at the base to a dull red, let it cool and apply the WD40 or whatever , PB blaster is good .

[T Creighton]

Well done with getting your studs out Mike.
That is a crafty tool you made.
Not having any thing like that, I cut the studs about an inch long and welded a nut to them.
Some came out easily but about a third of them snapped off and I had to drill the broken piece out. Anywhere they protruded into the water jacket they were well seized up.
Will you be able to use the studs you have taken out?
If not, do you have a source of new ones?
Terry

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by T Creighton

Well done with getting your studs out Mike.
That is a crafty tool you made.
Not having any thing like that, I cut the studs about an inch long and welded a nut to them.
Some came out easily but about a third of them snapped off and I had to drill the broken piece out. Anywhere they protruded into the water jacket they were well seized up.
Will you be able to use the studs you have taken out?
If not, do you have a source of new ones?
Terry

Hi Terry

Yes if the water jacket corrosion has affected the stud threads , this can cause major headaches as you discovered . I did think of welding nuts on like you did . I will machine some new 12mm studs out of something strong maybe stainless , I will have to research that. Did you use a anti seize coating on your new studs ?

Did you have hard valve seats fitted ? I noticed in the 1940 MCC manual , they had valve seat inserts way back then - not sure if these were fitted from new ? My 1950 land Rover has exhaust seat inserts ( a requirement because many export areas eg Africa had low grade petrol ) , I replaced these with new seats from Cox & Turner. I've seen a few botched jobs where the new inserts crack, or become loose .

[T Creighton]

Hi Mike,
My engine is away, with a newly ground crank, at one of the few firms that can do new white metal mains and big ends so I won't have to worry about new studs until it gets back to the re-conditioner who is doing the job. I would prefer rolled threads and high tensile steel. It looks like some helicoil inserts will be needed as well.
The block has hard exhaust valve seats that look in good enough condition, although they have a huge selection of new inserts, and they will make new guides which will be cheaper than new ones from Cox and Turner.
I have already bought new liners, pistons and a full set of valves.
The dollars are mounting up not to mention the time all this takes.
Terry.

[Mike K]

The camshaft is seized, will not rotate at all - rock solid Any ideas ????? The oil pump is still in situ but that isnt causing the problem .

The spring loaded button provides a slight preload onto the camshaft, the button rides against the timing cover . Apparently the helical gear drive to the oil pump/distributor provides the pushing force onto the spring loaded button , forcing it against the timing cover ?

I think moisture has made its way into the camshaft bearings , and over time these bearings have seized . In theory the camshaft should pull out easily .

[Mike K]

I think I found the problem, for an unknown reason, the camshaft has moved forward slightly and the helical drive gear on the camshaft is jammed into the oil pump/distributor drive gear .

[Mike K]

I have the engine stripped down.

Does anyone know of a good engine rebuilder - familiar with older vintage engines ? All I need is the block bored and exhaust seats installed , that's it . I am willing to travel. There is one in Bendigo but closer would be better .

I have been asking around but it seems that most of the good experienced rebuilders have retired . Somebody said some engine rebuilders have shut down because modern engines last for 500,00k typically and people these days just buy a new car .

[Chris Collins]

Is Geelong too far? go have a chat to Rod Smith or Robin Mawson, they've a lot of experience with older stuff, Rodney is the Technical officer of the Vic Morris register and Robin has a variety of Military vehicles.

http://www.mawsonmotors.com/

Cheers

Chris

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Chris Collins

Is Geelong too far? go have a chat to Rod Smith or Robin Mawson, they've a lot of experience with older stuff, Rodney is the Technical officer of the Vic Morris register and Robin has a variety of Military vehicles.

http://www.mawsonmotors.com/

Cheers

Chris

Thanks Chris. I have found one closer , he comes highly recommended , over 35 years experience with vintage stuff .

[Chris Collins]

no worries Mike, looking forward to seeing this project evolve!

[Mike K]

I managed to remove the old valve guides , these were slightly worn and I've seen a lot worse. But anyway I decided to make some new guides . I bought a length of 2P grade cast iron and machined it to size but my first attempts didn't go to plan .

I revised my setup and now have worked out the method that is producing nice concentric guides . My old ex tech school lathe has its quirks but it can still produce nice work !

[Lynn Eades]

Too late now for you Mike, but I understand that flathead v8s that sit for long periods tend to stick valves. One answer (as I understand) is bronze liners.
If the morris is also prone, then maybe starting with bronze instead of cast iron is a good move for anyone tackling this in the future?

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Too late now for you Mike, but I understand that flathead v8s that sit for long periods tend to stick valves. One answer (as I understand) is bronze liners.
If the morris is also prone, then maybe starting with bronze instead of cast iron is a good move for anyone tackling this in the future?

hi Lynn

Yes I did look into bronze but don't know where to get it, its a special manganese bronze they use. I got the cast iron bar from Flocast , at North Coburg . The iron they make is a machining grade , it does not have the superhard skin that will blunt your tools !

[Mike K]

I received an update from my engine man today, my CS8 engine block needs to be bored to +40 thou and I've only got the new +20 thou pistons . We discussed the options and I said I would have a look at another engine I have here , I removed it from a PU Morris , I will measure the bores for wear - hopefully it will be useable.

After all the effort of removing the studs and the work stripping it down, it was a wasted effort

At 300 bucks each I'm not buying new made in South Aust. JP brand pistons . My Morris friend in the UK has informed me the JP pistons are not up to standard anyway, he fitted them and after experiencing oil burning problems, he discovered the ring grooves have caused issues . JP overdid the ring groove taper , it should be .001" but on measuring, they are something like .010" .

The theory is: as the piston heats up the ring grooves change shape , ever so slightly . A tiny taper is made in the grooves to allow for the change.

[Dave Mills]

Hello Mike, have you considered having the engine sleeved and bored to accept the .020" OS pistons, may be a cheaper option. Just be sure to shave a little off your head to keep the compression ratio up.

It seems a shame not to use NOS if you have it.

Dave.

[hrpearce]

Hi Mike, are sleeves an option?

[Ganmain Tony]

Mike,

This might be bad advice but I'll throw it out there...

There are pistons perhaps that arent Morris but may still be what you need.

A chap from Wagga recently restored a 1912 Daimler Bus and discovered a Fiat
tractor piston was exactly the same and used them in his engine rebuild.

Another local resto on a Matchless motorcycle used Bedford pistons.

Thinking outside the box? May save some bucks

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Mike,

This might be bad advice but I'll throw it out there...

There are pistons perhaps that arent Morris but may still be what you need.

A chap from Wagga recently restored a 1912 Daimler Bus and discovered a Fiat
tractor piston was exactly the same and used them in his engine rebuild.

Another local resto on a Matchless motorcycle used Bedford pistons.

Thinking outside the box? May save some bucks

Yes that's true and its been done more than once. I did a basic search some time ago and I think it was Norton or a similar motorbike pistons that are the same bore size . Also some Mercedes cars of the 1960's.

The sleeving is a possible option but I am a cheapskate ! I have a few of these engines , all except one are still fitted in wrecks . It's a hell of a job removing these engines at the best of times , and doing stuff like that in Winter - forget it I'd end up in hospital with pneumonia for sure...been there and done that already, don't want to go back there.

[Mike K]

The sun was out today, I had a spurt of energy and dragged out the spare engine.

This is a pre-war civilian engine from a 1937-39 Morris truck . The pistons are dome shaped and the head is a different shape , plus the water jacket side is completely open . Other than that its identical to the CS8 engine. On the good side, its in very good shape, nil wear in the bores. This block is a good candidate for a bore out to +20.

After Morris aquired Wolesely ,the acronym MOWOG appeared , cast on many parts. It means "Morris Wolesley group" Ive been informed. This was before political correctness was heard of !

I took a pic of the oil pump dissy drive at No. 1 TDC

[Mike K]

The green civilian engine has been pulled down. The crank and its bearings are in excellent condition and can be reused after a clean up.

I have the block soaking in a drum of molasses. The block will be taken to Bunyip to be bored and decked . The head studs came out easily thank god . Valve guides were drilled , then a drift made and a few mild blows and they came out .

interesting pic of a Morris https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C356131?search

[Mike K]

Seems like Morris 6 engines were being salvaged .

This scene was at TOLGA ? Is that in QLD ? A PU8 Morris wreck, with four chaps doing something, I don't know what .

[Mike K]

I have new Morris 6 valves , got them from Cox & Turner years ago .

As an experiment, I had a go at refacing the worn and pitted exhaust valves that were taken out of the original CS8 motor. I used a 4 jaw chuck and a HSS tool in a lathe. A few very light cuts and a polish with emery cloth . These are not hard stellite valves that would normally need a grinder.

The refaced valves are good enough to use again but I will be using the new valves because they have more " meat" on them.

[Mike K]

The Morris engine block is back from the engine machinist . The cost of the boring job really surprised me, these engine places charge like a wounded bull. I had the block and head re-surfaced and the block dipped in a bath to clean it out. I should have got a quote but would that have made any difference ? It seemed like a rippoff to me and I'd like to know what others have been charged .

Does anybody know what the average cost of a rebore and hone is these days ? per cylinder ?

[Ian Mastin]

Hi Mike,

Can you tell us the name of the engine machining shop that you used please? Reason I will be looking for someone to machine my Ford Flathead V8 out of my Fordson WOT in time and also Mike could you Pm me what it cost you please just to give me an idea on cost.

Regards
Ian

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Ian Mastin

Hi Mike,

Can you tell us the name of the engine machining shop that you used please? Reason I will be looking for someone to machine my Ford Flathead V8 out of my Fordson WOT in time and also Mike could you Pm me what it cost you please just to give me an idea on cost.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian

I won't name the engine rebuilders but I've sent u a PM . I've discovered the block hasn't been dipped as he said he would, its in exactly the same uncleaned as when I dropped it off to him.

It cost $1650 for a bore and hone and the deck re-surfaced and the head re-surfaced.

Also found 2 small cracks in the block next to a stud .

[Dave Mills]

I suppose it all depends on your instructions to the reconditioner Mike. He may have just taken you literally? However, I would take the block back to your reconditioner and shove it up his "A..e". To have been told it was dipped and to have a block reconditioned with cracks without even communication with you is poor form indeed.

The local Engine Reconditioner here in town has just finished my B60 and I have done just on 3000K's on the reco motor.

I had the B60 engine dismantled, over hauled, including the block being pressure cleaned (could not put the block in the dipping tanks due to the amount of Alloy components in the block which will just disappear in the solution).

Upon inspection it required three cylinders to be machined and sleeves fitted (B60 never had sleeves) 6 x .020" oversizes pistons fitted, cylinder head machined down .090" and recondition with four inlet valves being replaced. Even took the time to recalculate the compression ratios to ensure I could run on the higher octane unleaded fuels.

Engine reassembled, painted, and, loaded into my trailer. Took the local bloke 6 weeks and it started first piston up. A great job seeing the complexity of a Rolls Royce engine compared to the stock standard engine. I supplied the VRS gasket overhaul kit, NOS valves, NOS piston and ring sets and the paint, all up it cost me just on $7200

If you want PM me and I will pass on the name of my local bloke in Seymour. He has so much work that at a minimum you will be waiting 6 to 8 weeks.

Hang in there Mike, it is disappointing when this occurs and can make some just walk away from their restoration.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Mike K]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the encouraging words . So far I have been fortunate because: with all of the old vehicles I have played with over the years, I have got away with just fitting new rings and honing, doing this myself at minimal cost. This is my first experience at dealing with a professional engine re-builder and unfortunately , it's turned a little sour !

I am hoping that the cracks are minor and they will not effect the performance of the engine ! I will try some loctite on the stud and hopefully it will seal it . I will make new studs on my lathe.

re: head gaskets, I found this interesting business based in Thailand , you email them a scan of your gasket and they will make the gasket . The feedback seems positive.

http://www.gasketstogo.com/

[Mike K]

The ongoing saga of the engine rebuild: I've discovered another engine machinist down here in Morwell, they are one of the last few engine rebuilders still going down this way.

Ive decided to go back to the original engine that was factory fitted in the CS8 and rebuild it. I recently bought set of .040 oversize pistons ( these are rare as rocking horse poo ) from a UK seller . These are aftermarket pistons probably made in the 1950's . Problem is the rings are corroded slightly , they are 1/8" compression rings and a 3/16" scraper.

The Morris standard bore is 82mm , I worked out 3.25" + 20 thou is equal to 82mm + 40 thou , close enough. I can buy a Hastings ring set for a Hercules engine with the same ring dimensions as the Morris BUT the Hercules rings are too wide , the Morris ring grooves are very shallow ie the depth , I would have to machine the Hercules rings thinner . Or deepen the piston grooves which is risky , these are heavy cast alloy pistons and the piston tops might break off under the immense stresses