Centurion Arrives in BC

[Ed Storey]

I have just taken out the recycle and had a rethink about this thread. This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

I don't think you intend to write a history of the Centurion tank in CF service but you are trying to determine if the tank in question, and now in Aldergrove, actually served in Korea. Adding to the mystery is that the tank does not have a known British MoD WD number and the attributed CFR is questionable.

You may never be able to find the correct CFR or WD number for the vehicle now in Aldergrove, but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You may be able to find out how many tanks were used in Korea and what they had for assigned WD numbers. You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks. This would I think at least prove or disprove the theory of some Canadian Centurions tanks having seen previous use in Korea.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC.

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by rob love

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

[Dennis Cardy]

Paid a quick visit to the Aldergrove Legion today, Thurs. 28 Nov, 2019.
They are very happy about the Centurion project.

I was shown the spot where it will be placed. High visibility, right next to busy main road through the middle of Aldergrove.
Next to the Cenotaph, where the sign, flag pole, and the concrete pavers are.

In a collaborative move, the Legion and Maj.(CF) Newby, are seeking Govt. and other funding sources, to construct the pad,
as the pavers might be a tad under strength. A nearby CF Base has been contacted for engineering specs.
Too bad Rob Love wasn't here. His extensive knowledge of monument installation would be useful.

A lot going on behind the scenes to make it all happen.

We did not discuss its provenance.

Cheers.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Paid a quick visit to the Aldergrove Legion today, Thurs. 28 Nov, 2019.
They are very happy about the Centurion project.

I was shown the spot where it will be placed. High visibility, right next to busy main road through the middle of Aldergrove. Next to the Cenotaph, where the sign, flag pole, and the concrete pavers are.

Unfortunately that did not progress because of a bunch of reasons that are all spelled "liability". Seems to be happening with a lot of existing monuments too as entities start fearing they'll be sued if some visitor rediscovers the law of gravity while climbing on it. As a result the whole cosmetic rehab project stalled at the same time and is still struggling to get back nearer the top of the Job Jar.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Unfortunately that did not progress because of a bunch of reasons that are all spelled "liability". Seems to be happening with a lot of existing monuments too as entities start fearing they'll be sued if some visitor rediscovers the law of gravity while climbing on it. As a result the whole cosmetic rehab project stalled at the same time and is still struggling to get back nearer the top of the Job Jar.

Where is the Centurion now?

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

More assumptions. How do you know the photographs were taken from Kodak Instamatics if you have not seem them? I used a Canon FTB 35mm SLR in the 1970s and my photographs are crystal clear.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

To that end, look for some of the Canadian modifications. A vehicle as large and cumbersome as a Cent will have been Canadianized to some degree.



An related example is the Canadian ferrets. There were a number of modifications, including the welding of different blocks on the hull so the 5 pound Ansul extinguisher brackets could be installed. Another was the installation of different passage points for the rear tail light wiring. There are a half dozen more official and unofficial modifications that differentiate the Canadian Ferret from the UK ferrets. I have no doubt there must be similar changes for the centurions, and if you find the Canadian modifications on them, then that may lend to it's Cdn lineage.

[jdmcm]

Hey Dennis and Andy

so awesome that the tank is going to be on display for everyone to see! Perhaps some kind of fundraiser is in order to help pay for the required display? I have no idea what that would cost but there must be a fellow victim of green fever in the area who specializes in concrete? Is the tank exterior complete? looks pretty good from what I have seen, I do have a few external bits I could donate if required to make sure she is turned out complete.

Anyway, I know there is a some question of its provenance, but honestly it is a Centurion, the first one we will have here in BC on display that I know of, which is fantastic! Keep up the good work.

Regards
John

[Aide Memoire]

The bins have the bottoms rotted out of them for the most part, and the sheet metal above the tracks needs to be replaced entirely, but it's all flat stock. Everything else is excellent right down to the road wheels.

Found something interesting. Anthony Sewards posted a pic of the data plate of the Cent he's involved with which has the Serial No. and British VRN number side-by-side but not the CFR (I've asked if he knows it.)

Serial No. of that Cent: 134-190 'March 1952'
Serial No. of our Cent: 142-190

To me, as logical guesswork, that looks like it was a run of 190 tanks for that particular block, and the two tanks are 8 serial numbers apart. Anthony's tank has the British VRN 07 BA 11, which is part of a contiguous block of VRNs not assigned in my list which has nothing from 06 BA 38 right through 07 BA 25 connected to anything English or Australian. Making an *enormous* leap-of-faith, that might make ours 07 BA 19, but as Ed said - things wind up out of sequence all the time for whatever reason.

Either way it would seem to make it made in the same batch around March 1952 as Anthony's one - which would include it among the ones built new for Canada and not any Korean retread.

One other interesting thing...I didn't track back the MIKAN numbers, but back to that one pic from Harold's site:

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4234066.jpg

Ed seems quite correct in that the 1964 date is most certainly wrong. I think it's RCDs right after they took delivery of the first Centurions as per this:

"The first 21 Centurions were delivered to the Royal Canadian Dragoons in Germany in March 1952, where they served with the Canadian contingent of the NATO forces based there."

Which would explain both the earlier sequence number "CDN 03 BA 47" and the lack of a (well...visible at least) CFR.

I have some more turret pics to post in a separate post.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

Hey Dennis and Andy

so awesome that the tank is going to be on display for everyone to see! Perhaps some kind of fundraiser is in order to help pay for the required display? (...) I do have a few external bits I could donate if required to make sure she is turned out complete.

Cheers. That's very generous of you. Everything certainly helps!

Not entirely sure what the timeline is. I know there was considerable site-prep dialogue and pressure to speed things along directly after R-day...but to me that's kind of at odds with having to do extensive sheet metal work and painting...outside...in the dead of Winter. Unless between the Legion, City and...higher headquarters here...someone's come up with a plan to contract both out that I'm unaware of. I'm more than happy to wait until the weather gets to the point I don't have to thin paint 300:1 to get it through the gun.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by rob love

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

Something just came up on the 'Canadian Military Vehicles' Facebook group which made this worth revisiting. The Centurion that was owned by Crown Surplus made its way into the Jacques Littlefield collection, got auctioned a few years ago, and is now on its way to the Pima Air and Space Collection where they're apparently starting a ground combat vehicle grouping.

Paraphrasing Ken Raychert, the Crown Surplus Centurion was apparently an ex-Fort Garry Horse tank which wound up in a group of 16 ex-CDN Centurions at Levy Auto Parts, which were then sold to the Brits to use as hard targets at Suffield. The Crown Surplus tank, supposedly 53-81228, was the only one sold privately by Levy - with the rest off to the ranges.

If that's all true - Canadian tanks were on the ranges at Suffield - where the one we have here in Aldergrove is supposed to have come from - so it might be one of the 16 that Levy had.

** I say 'supposedly 53-81228' because that CAR is duplicated on a Centurion displayed at CFB Kingston for some reason.

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

** I say 'supposedly 53-81228' because that CAR is duplicated on a Centurion displayed at CFB Kingston for some reason.

Did these tanks get a stamped CAR somewhere, like most other SMP vehicles from the early 50s?

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

And quite rightly. While I love a good mystery, I prefer mine in paperback.

but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks.

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

As I stated before, are you sure that the tanks were not being sent from Germany to Hong Kong as you don't even know any the details of the tanks held by the Canadian Brigade in Germany. Do you even know how many tanks 1 RTR had in Korea and what their specific Mod WD numbers are? Do you know how many tanks were being held in Hong Kong?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

So how many tanks do you have the data on or are you only working from one tank? Again, what details do you know about the Canadina tanks used in Germany?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

What target year range did you check on? Yes, Bovington's cards do meet the litmus-test for original sources and they appear to be the only primary sources you have looked at. Why the reluctance to check a known Canadian Centurion MoD WD number with Bovington to see what they have? Again, I think you are making assumptions on the transfers. Also, what do you know about 1 RTR Centurions?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

I eagerly await to hear about what you find.