Leopard 1 Driver Training Cabs in Canada

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

It is a known fact that Canada bought 127 Leopard 1A3s (C1) in 1978...

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". As a young reservist armoured, I was attached to the flyover squadron in 1980. There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

There were also a couple Leopards and an ARV hiding in Borden for trades training. I recall the leopards coming out to pester us during our field portion of trades training in 81 whilst in Borden.....the two or three all had turrets.

Although I really liked the armoured, my time in Gagetown was what prompted me to go into the regular force as a mechanic. We were under severe budgetary and mileage restraints on the tanks, and it was almost like being unemplyed most of the time. Yet when I looked over at the mechanics and the welder, they never seemed to have to worry about finding work....there was always plenty of it. So I joined up as a veh tech, and for the next 23 years also never had to look for work. Still don't.

[Ed Storey]

I like the 114 gun tank number as it is supported by the 1980 C-30-731-000/MA-000 Data Summary which gives the same number. I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33. The remaining 37 (all in Canada) are listed as modified to accept driver's training cab which could possibly be a broad-brush number for vehicles which at one time may have had the cab fitted. Again, if this is the case then why not report them as C1 MBTs?

So how many of the driver training cabs did we buy/rent and what was their NATO stock number?

Interesting numbers game on a 40 year-old vehicle type.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33.

I don't think it has to do with shuffling the numbers so much as by October 1992 the brigade group in Germany had less than a year to go before it shut down completely. I don't know how many Leopard AFV's Canada shipped from Germany after peace broke out, but the Canadian Army surely wouldn't have needed 114 C1's domestically. Maybe it disposed of / sold the 44 left behind.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

The 114 Leopard C1s were upgraded in 1996 to C2 status, but only 66 were so modified. Some C2s were sold or used as targets in 2003 when at that time there was a move to replace them with the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System (MGS). The MGS plan was cancelled in 2006 and that same year a Squadron of MEXAS armoured C2s (15 + 2 spares) were sent to Afghanistan; and in 2007 the CF invested in Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 tanks. The Leopard C2s were parked for good this spring are now up for disposal.

Here is a photo of a Canadian Leopard C2 I took while in Kandahar in 2011.

IMG_9938 Leopard C2 85159 ECC 116104.jpg

[rob love]

Interesting story I got on the turrets purchased to upgrade the tanks in the 90s. This came from an acquaintance who left Shilo to take on the LCMM position in Ottawa. They bought the turrets for $15K each, and paid a 10K deposit on the hulls on which the turrets sat. Once the tanks reached Canada, the turrets were stripped to upgrade our tanks. But once they looked at the costs to send the hulls back to Germany, it was decided to forfeit the deposit and just keep the chassis here for cannibalization. It was around then that the old turrets started showing up for targets, as did stripped out hulls. Here in Shilo, the ones that showed up were used as range markers as opposed to hard targets.

[Colin Alford]

Gents,

I can't answer the initial question but here is some info which may help resolve some of the additional discussion.

NSN for Driver Training Cabin: 2350-12-174-6597

Applicable Publications:

NDID CD ENGLISH TITLE Date
C-11-206-000/ME-000 DRIVER TRAINING CABIN LEOPARD C1 MBT INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS 08/08/1980
C-11-206-000/MF-000 SERVICING AND MAINTENANCE 08/08/1978
C-11-206-000/MF-001 EQUIPEMENT D'INSTRUCTION (French Only) 08/08/1978
C-11-206-000/MY-001 LEOPARD C1 - ILLUSTRATED PARTS LIST FOR DRIVER TRAINING CABIN 06/10/1997
L-11-206-000/LS-001 TANK, TRAINING AID, INSTRUCTIONAL CABIN TANK SK 221-000000-000-0 (LEOPARD C1)

I looked through the installation instructions and I must admit that I am having trouble following them as the text is in English but the drawings have poor resolution and are in German. It appears that there were modifications required to the existing accelerator and brake pedal assemblies to allow the linkages from the cabin controls to connect to them. There may also have been some work done on the floor of the hull to provide mounting points for elements of the installation kit.

Colin

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

Rob, neither Ed or myself is saying that there were 37 C1's fitted with a training cab. What we're saying is that 37 C1's were modified to be able to be fitted with a training cab. If only six training cabs existed (as seems to be the case), then they could be fitted to any one of the 37 C1 hulls in rotation.

I saw a training cab once, at a military show in Oshawa about 10 years ago. It was in the hands of a private owner. Didn't take a photo of it. Without a tank under it, it didn't seem like much. To me, anyway.

Cheers,
Dan.

[James P]

I am in with Rob that there was NOT 37 gun tanks made into cab tanks, and cannot see the CF buying 37 cab tank kits. Like really, 1/3 of the gun tanks being made into D&M cabs makes zero sense. If that was the case where would 37 turrets end up ? Now my memory may not be what it was but six was the number I can recall up to the mid 90s at the School and I doubt there was 31 cab kits held in stores, and as Rob points out there where zero cab tanks in Germany.
Further on this the cab portion when installed on a C1 hull allowed the driver instructor (in the cab) to override the driver in the hull. I hate assuming anything but the cab kit would have everything for the swap and I cannot see any need to "modify" a gun tank hull for steering/shifting/braking.