Leopard 1 Driver Training Cabs in Canada

[Grant Bowker]

Did the modification to accept the training cab in any way limit the use of the tank in the normal role with the turret? If the (modified) base tank hull was equally usable with either training cab or turret, it is possible that in a burst of enthusiasm it was decided to modify several times as many hulls as there were training cabs so that it would only be necessary to ship the driver training cab and not the entire tank to train in different locations.
This suggestion is made without any actual knowledge of the driver training adaptation of the Leopard to offer a possible explanation of what otherwise sounds illogical.

[Ed Storey]

I must admit to be baffled (more than normal) by the numbers. It is a known fact that Canada bought 127 Leopard 1A3s (C1) in 1978 yet the 1992 holding list only shows 114 with 77 being MBTs. So this leaves 13 accounted for yet by 1996 it is reported that the 114 C1s will be upgraded to C2.

Could there have been 13 parts and spares vehicles?

Leopard Holdings – 22 October, 1992

ECC 116101 Leopard C1 77

ECC 116102 Leopard C1 modified to accept Drivers Training Cab 37

Total Leopard C1 114

Here is a 1981 photo of a C1 with the Driver Training Cab.

S38-7 Leopard Driver Training Tank.jpg

[Robin Craig]

I suspect that the tanks and turrets and greenhouses have been cycled through a number of tanks during their life as a way to even out maintenance and wear.

If there was a way to account for the CFR of the tanks involved and see what maintenance / conversions was done then we would have our evidence.

To me that seems the only plausible way to explain the numbers.

What say others?

[Ed Storey]

I agree, so lets say for arguments sake that DND only has 6 cabs and they are getting popped on and off tanks as required; then why would the numbers being reported not record 108 MBTs and 6 Trainers? Or even 114 MBTs and 6cabs for that matter (although the cabs don't have their own ECC)?

Running a check through each Leopard C1 record could reveal which tanks were used as trainers but this number may turn out to be 37.

Now which Ottawa landfill contains DNDs legacy Leopard files?

[Mike Cecil]

Gents, an interesting discussion, and I'm glad I'm not the only one puzzled by the numbers!

Thanks for the input. 6 or 8 sounds reasonable (6 sounds more reasonable than 8 given the number of tanks on the inventory.

Nice pic of the cab equipped C1, Ed.

Mike

[James P]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I agree, so lets say for arguments sake that DND only has 6 cabs and they are getting popped on and off tanks as required; then why would the numbers being reported not record 108 MBTs and 6 Trainers? Or even 114 MBTs and 6cabs for that matter (although the cabs don't have their own ECC)?

Running a check through each Leopard C1 record could reveal which tanks were used as trainers but this number may turn out to be 37.

Now which Ottawa landfill contains DNDs legacy Leopard files?

Simple. A gun tank is a gun tank regardless if it has a turret, or had that removed and replaced with a cab and set up to drive from the cab (which is a pretty cool experience). The cab kit was not a vehicle nor a weapon system. Good point about the number 37 and maybe that being the number of tanks in the CF inventory that had worn the cab at some point to spread the mileages across the fleet.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

It is a known fact that Canada bought 127 Leopard 1A3s (C1) in 1978...

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". As a young reservist armoured, I was attached to the flyover squadron in 1980. There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

There were also a couple Leopards and an ARV hiding in Borden for trades training. I recall the leopards coming out to pester us during our field portion of trades training in 81 whilst in Borden.....the two or three all had turrets.

Although I really liked the armoured, my time in Gagetown was what prompted me to go into the regular force as a mechanic. We were under severe budgetary and mileage restraints on the tanks, and it was almost like being unemplyed most of the time. Yet when I looked over at the mechanics and the welder, they never seemed to have to worry about finding work....there was always plenty of it. So I joined up as a veh tech, and for the next 23 years also never had to look for work. Still don't.

[Ed Storey]

I like the 114 gun tank number as it is supported by the 1980 C-30-731-000/MA-000 Data Summary which gives the same number. I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33. The remaining 37 (all in Canada) are listed as modified to accept driver's training cab which could possibly be a broad-brush number for vehicles which at one time may have had the cab fitted. Again, if this is the case then why not report them as C1 MBTs?

So how many of the driver training cabs did we buy/rent and what was their NATO stock number?

Interesting numbers game on a 40 year-old vehicle type.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33.

I don't think it has to do with shuffling the numbers so much as by October 1992 the brigade group in Germany had less than a year to go before it shut down completely. I don't know how many Leopard AFV's Canada shipped from Germany after peace broke out, but the Canadian Army surely wouldn't have needed 114 C1's domestically. Maybe it disposed of / sold the 44 left behind.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

The 114 Leopard C1s were upgraded in 1996 to C2 status, but only 66 were so modified. Some C2s were sold or used as targets in 2003 when at that time there was a move to replace them with the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System (MGS). The MGS plan was cancelled in 2006 and that same year a Squadron of MEXAS armoured C2s (15 + 2 spares) were sent to Afghanistan; and in 2007 the CF invested in Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 tanks. The Leopard C2s were parked for good this spring are now up for disposal.

Here is a photo of a Canadian Leopard C2 I took while in Kandahar in 2011.

IMG_9938 Leopard C2 85159 ECC 116104.jpg

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

Rob, neither Ed or myself is saying that there were 37 C1's fitted with a training cab. What we're saying is that 37 C1's were modified to be able to be fitted with a training cab. If only six training cabs existed (as seems to be the case), then they could be fitted to any one of the 37 C1 hulls in rotation.

I saw a training cab once, at a military show in Oshawa about 10 years ago. It was in the hands of a private owner. Didn't take a photo of it. Without a tank under it, it didn't seem like much. To me, anyway.

Cheers,
Dan.

[James P]

I am in with Rob that there was NOT 37 gun tanks made into cab tanks, and cannot see the CF buying 37 cab tank kits. Like really, 1/3 of the gun tanks being made into D&M cabs makes zero sense. If that was the case where would 37 turrets end up ? Now my memory may not be what it was but six was the number I can recall up to the mid 90s at the School and I doubt there was 31 cab kits held in stores, and as Rob points out there where zero cab tanks in Germany.
Further on this the cab portion when installed on a C1 hull allowed the driver instructor (in the cab) to override the driver in the hull. I hate assuming anything but the cab kit would have everything for the swap and I cannot see any need to "modify" a gun tank hull for steering/shifting/braking.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Did the modification to accept the training cab in any way limit the use of the tank in the normal role with the turret? If the (modified) base tank hull was equally usable with either training cab or turret, it is possible that in a burst of enthusiasm it was decided to modify several times as many hulls as there were training cabs so that it would only be necessary to ship the driver training cab and not the entire tank to train in different locations.
This suggestion is made without any actual knowledge of the driver training adaptation of the Leopard to offer a possible explanation of what otherwise sounds illogical.

Sorry for not really understanding your question but swapping out a turret for a cab is not going to call for "modifying" the hull and just made for a lot of work for old Bluebell. Pretty much a plug and play swap. I could be wrong but up to the mid 1990s the only folks with a cabbed tank(s) was/where the Armour School at Gagetown, post mid 90s maybe they (CF) moved a cab tank around but I doubt it. Mileages where always something that was watched and accounted for, the D&M tanks would obviously have more then the Gunnery Sqn tanks that lived a more pampered life.