AKA Cambridge carrier

[Jon Bradshaw]

So I received the electronic pictures from the museum today. There are some very good photos of the machine when it was new and complete.
The interior shot is an FV401 and the roofed one is the FV402.
It looks like the ferret generation of radio gear and some other electronics on the interior wall, does anyone have suggestions as to what else they were using? The antennae mounts are normal ferret style except for the big one on the crew comd's hatch side.
You can also see the cutout in the side wall to accommodate the radios, mine has evidence of this so this tells me that it was most likely a 402 not a 401.
The stowage bins on the side are easy to build but the ones on the back will take some work.

[rob love]

My guess is the radios are pre-clansmen, so still of the 19set generation/family. The antenna mounts and the control boxes visible in the one photos give credence to that.

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of a Cambridge Carrier driving out of a wading tank in 1955.

[Frank v R]

may also be 29 set , the brits also had them,

[David Herbert]

In the photos that Jon has just posted all the radio gear looks like 19 set generation, remember that the 19 set generation of radio gear was replaced by the Larkspur system which was in turn replaced by Clansman which was replaced from about 2000 by Bowman. The best resource on Larkspur that I use is: http://www.wftw.nl/harness.html If you click on the thumbnails you get an explanation of each item.

In the photos of JXW32you can see the FVPE 'wing' (individual vehicle identification number): 3816, and 'P1' telling us that this is prototype number 1. All the other prototypes will be significantly different in detail and often in major ways like hatch arrangements, power train, etc.

Note that P1 has no provision for the wading screen which I believe was bolted to the top of the track guards and into the notch in the top of the rear stowage boxes, against the rear of the hull armour.

David

[Jon Bradshaw]

David you are correct that there was no provision for a wading skirt on JXW32. The one posted coming out of the water is the Infantry carrier version of the Cambridge with the open top (as seen top left of this page). The headlights are different on the APC vs the Arty OP version. I believe the reason the numbers on JXW32 show it as the first prototype is because it is the first artillery Observation Post version to be built. Mine has the headlights in the lower position between the front fenders and it also has the wading skirt still attached (rotted away) but I don't have anywhere near as much info on the APC version that I have on the Arty OP. The wading skirt does not appear to have been a carry over so I will likely do away with it. The headlights were long gone but the mounts are still there on mine. If you look on page one of this thread you can see the difference in the fronts of the two versions. The arty OP version has a better look to it (my opinion) and the starting point of the restoration is the same. Complete strip and sandblast.
I hope that helps answer that.

[Jon Bradshaw]

See here on the front the old wading skirt and the low mount headlights.

[David Herbert]

Sorry Jon, I should have been clearer. There would have been a 'P1' of each of the variants that were actually built.

The P for Prototype and W for troop trial vehicles system got a bit mixed up with the FV430 series because one of the W numbered vehicles became modified to full series production standard (and is shown in the user manual) It retained its Army Registration number but was completely brought up to production standard which involved considerable work. Similarly another W numbered one became the prototype Green Archer radar vehicle, again retaining its Army Registration and recieving a total rebuild.

Going back to your Cambridge, as I understand it all variants were intended to be fitted with a wading screen as swimming was regarded as extremely desirable at that time. The lower headlight location should not I think be looked on as a mod, but as the production standard once the wading screen became part of the design. I think that it was not fitted to JXW32 simply because they hadn't designed it yet and were more interested in hull layout and automotive issues.

The key is to find the hull number or Army Registration number of yours. As I wrote before, FV430 series have a hull number stamped into a tiny plate about 30 x 25mm welded to the rear of the vehicle. Failing that another common place is stamped into the sloping front (glassis) plate, often near the lower edge in the middle. There must be one somewhere so they could keep track of which hull was which in the factory.

I think that this will be a fascinating project and that you will find it great to play with when it is done. Please show us lots of photos.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

While suffering with a head cold and not having much physical energy, I was trying to surf to the end of the internet through Facebook, and found the following images from a group dedicated to Rhodesian and South African vehicles. I was initially tempted to label these as a Cambridge, but closer checks of the images already posted here, see differently.

So, for the sake of eliminating possibilities, what is this vehicle?

[David Herbert]

Certainly not British though it is based on Universal carrier track and suspension components. I suspect that it has a relatively standard truck axle in which case they would have had great difficulties steering it.
I think it is probably a South African prototype intended to be a sort of enlarged universal carrier.

The tie bar linking the front and rear bogies is an odd detail. It was presumably intended to reduce pitching but would have had the oposite effect, a really bad idea !

David

[Jon Bradshaw]

So the Cambridge has been researched and I have looked at the options for what to do with it.

For the power pack I have pulled and sold the old B80 and the transmission. The new engine will be a non turbo charged V8 diesel engine from an MLVW (Canadian 2 1/2 ton troop lift truck. This should give more than enough power and will make for a very solid old engine with plenty of power. The transmission is an automatic.
After opening up the final drive casing there is no 5 speed built in, it was simply linked back under the grime to the transmission. The final drive still had a good coating of oil on the gears so still functions very well. The advantage of the forward and reverse lever on the final drive is that the engine rotation is not an issue. Just reversing the lever sorts that problem out.

The strange radiator is in good shape with no leaks and should be easy to fit to the newer engine. Keeping the unique radiator is going to make the fitting of a rad to the vehicle very easy since the cowl was welded to the hull. It will fit right back into place.

As I get more time to work on this chassis I will finish cleaning out the gunk and give it a sand blast and paint before dropping in the engine. I have to paint the Bofors and a CMP anyways so why not go all the way to green on it while I am at if...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw

The wheel pattern is closest to a Panzer 38T, but there are plenty of these out there and there is no need to make another one out of a non original chassis.
The 38T was made into several successful variants- Hetzer, Marder, Grille etc. The one that doesn't have any surviving examples of it (that I can find) is the Aufklarungspanzer 38(t) Sdkfz 140/1 (recce tank) This vehicle was made in 2 variants- one with an open top and a short 75mm gun and the second was a semi closed turreted version with a 20mm gun. I have decided to go with the 20mm version. There were about 70 of these made but I haven't seen any online pics of one in a museum... Just some wartime ones and one set of post war "junk" parking lot shots.

AFAIK, there aren't any surviving Aufklärungspanzer 38(t). Also checked http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving...n_Vehicles.pdf

So you're good to go...

[Ed Storey]

Just what the world needs is one more fake German SWW AFV. It is no wonder everyone is in love with German SWW armour as no one cares to preserve and restore what is perceived to be a less glamorous vehicle and use it to explain to the public the story behind that particular vehicle and why it was manufactured. Instead the first thing that seems to come to mind is how can it be turned into something German. Don't get me wrong, I like German SWW armour as much as the next guy; but I find parading around another reproduced German vehicle just perpetuates the myth to the public that destroying one thing to fake something else is somehow what collecting is all about.

[Bob Phillips]

So joy of ownership being what it is, you can do what you want with this chassis. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't always agree with Ed, but I think he is right on this one. It remains a relatively rare and unusual item and worthy of restoration. If you don't have the funds, time or expertise why not move it along to someone who has? B80 engines and related parts are readily available in the UK. There are probably lots of bits and pieces out there for this machine if you look long and hard.
There are lots of tracked vehicle parts available cheap for a project ( M113 diffs , APC suspension parts, I can sell you a pallet of M18 roadwheels cheap).
Ask the guy who 30 years ago, chopped the top off a UC to weld a truck cab on top - if he wishes he still had a more or less complete carrier today.
Just my 2 cents, good luck with your project!
BP

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Jon,

Your carrier, your toy, your choice, but ... I, like Ed and Bob, will lament the fact that such a rare and unusual carrier has been buried under a replica of something unrelated.

Want a German vehicle replica? Check out Jonathan Moore's thread on this forum about how he has built one from scratch. Fantastic piece of work, and nothing significant lost to history.

Mike

[David Herbert]

I am sorry Jon but I must add my name to Ed, Bob and Mikes. You own the Cambridge and have the right to do what you want but your proposed project will involve far more work than restoring it to its original form and at the end you will have a poor representation that might fool the paintball enthusiasts but will have no intrinsic value other than as a toy. There have been quite a number of FV432s converted into pretend Stug3s but if you know what a Stug3 looks like they look silly. There are still lots of 432s about but you have the only Cambridge in Canada and there are only a couple more in the world. I agree that yours is a prototype but they were used in Korea (where China got their one from) so have an operational history but I for one find a prototype more interesting than a production vehicle. It is a significant part of the story of the evolution from Universal carrier to Fv432.
Sorry to be grumpy,

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

There are still lots of 432s about but you have the only Cambridge in Canada and there are only a couple more in the world. I agree that yours is a prototype but they were used in Korea (where China got their one from) so have an operational history but I for one find a prototype more interesting than a production vehicle. It is a significant part of the story of the evolution from Universal carrier to Fv432.
Sorry to be grumpy,

David

Hi David,
I think you are incorrect about a Cambridge being in Korea and now in a Chinese museum. That is actually an Oxford Carrier. I have a particular interest as I am involved in restoring an Oxford to running condition.

I also agree with you and the others about this Cambridge carrier, it does not deserve being converted.

Richard

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw

According to the attached doc the only two surviving ones are the one at Bovington and mine (formerly from the Swords and Plowshares collection)

This comment struck me the most, and I thought it indicated that Jon was well aware of the rarity and significance of this vehicle, perhaps not.

[Jon Bradshaw]

So to all of you that voiced the opinion for an original build I will heed your wisdom in this. An original Cambridge carrier APC will be rebuilt. I looked again today and could not find any hull numbers so have to assume they are under too much paint, sandblasting will show more.

To those of you that messaged me in support of my other plan thank you as well.

However on a side note- I would still like a bigger tank if anyone out there has a chassis that is bigger than a universal carrier? And preferably in Canada/ North america.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Tank Chats # 123 | Oxford and Cambridge Carriers | The Tank Museum

https://youtu.be/X_6SY16y-OE

[Peter Duggan]

Guys,

I had the opportunity to visit Jonathan Bradshaw and get an update on his work on his Cambridge carrier. Certainly looks a lot better than when it was dragged home. Running gear and suspension freed up, cleaned, painted and ready to roll. Literally tons of sandblasting and paint have brought the hull back to life. The original engine and drive train were beyond recovery, however the original radiator and final drives have been cleaned, painted and are incorporated in the rebuild. Engine pictures to follow on another thread.

Peter

[Peter Duggan]

Guys,

With the original drive train in such bad condition, Jonathan has decided to use the drive train from a Canadian Forces MLVW 2.5 ton truck. This consists of a non turbo charged V8 diesel, coupled to an Allison automatic transmission. Jonathan was able to recover and use the original radiator and the original final drives.

The engine/radiator combination has been successfully run up on an engine stand, with goal of installing the power pack into the Cambridge before next summer. I'm looking forward to see this Cambridge drive once again, Peter

[Mike Cecil]

Nice job on the hull thus far. Are B80 engines and gearboxes/transmissions too hard to find in Canada?

Mike

[rob love]

20 years ago it was possible to get B80s with the Allison TX200 automatics from scrapped FV432s out of Regina. But those days are long gone, as are those power-plants. Whereas the 8.2 liter Fuel pincher with the Allison MT635 are relatively easy and reasonably priced right now since the government scrapped the vast majority of the MLVWs in the past 5 years. The GM 8.2 is not a particularly good engine, but for limited mileage, and without the turbo, should give reasonable service.

[wally dugan]

A quick check on the FVRDE FILES shows a number of the early FV401 been sent to ranges in the late 1950s to be used as targets these include P3 wing number 4283 P4 4328 60 BA 00 4901 RGX 893 which had the vrm 60 BA O5 wing number 5591 . The lists cover both FV 401 and FV 402

[Peter Duggan]

Guys,

I had the opportunity on Wednesday to participate in Jonathan Bradshaw's trial run of his Cambridge carrier. The mating of a modern drive train to the Cambridge is very well done and won't be noticeable once the engine covers are rebuilt.

For a maiden run it was remarkably trouble free and the subsequent jaunt through farm fields was a blast.

Thanks to Len Neal for the video.

Enjoy, I certainly did, Peter

https://youtu.be/MHWVRMMl_Ec

[Bob Phillips]

Congratulations to Jonathan on a great bit of work! The machine looks great and certainly seems to operate well. The use of a more current V8 diesel seems a reasonable concession to operation and probably also to the budget. I look forward to future reports and videos showing us what you have accomplished.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Tell me again how something as rare and one of a kind as a Cambridge came to be in Canada? And is the plan to restore it as a Cambridge?

[Jon Bradshaw]

To Bruce and the rest of you with interest in the history of this hull.

I was told this story by Mike, the guy who I bought this old hull from. As with all oral histories, take it for half truth and supposition.

The vehicle was a prototype and was being shown around by the company making it, trying to find buyers. This particular hull was shipped to Canada for presentation to the Canadian army. Presumably this was done in the Ottawa or Borden area around 1950-52. The vehicle was not impressive to the reviewing officers and was not accepted for further trials.
Presumably the vehicle was at the end of its life already since it was not going well finding a buyer. It was cheaper to leave it here in Canada as scrap then to ship it home to England. It went to a scrap yard. It was bought by an unknown party and chopped of all armor, then used as a bush machine. At some point they blew the transmission and it was a dead machine.
It was taken to a scrap yard outside Perth ON and dropped there for destruction. The owner of the yard didn't destroy it he just kept it out back.
Around 1983 it was rescued from the scrap yard by Mike Calnan, (of the Swords and Ploughshares museum) a fellow collector of old iron. He brought it to his yard where it sat beside many other old rusty pieces of treasure. There is a picture back in the previous posts of what it looked like when I found it.
I bought it in Oct of 2017. Brought it home and parked it for future consideration. I finished my Vickers reproduction and then a CMP water truck. Now I have gotten around to making this old machine work again.

That's how it came to be mine. There are no hull numbers that I can find, only part numbers. It is interesting since this was a prototype you can see how they welded different parts on for different trials. Stuff isn't square and isn't event the same thickness. Instead of nice drilled holes for the horn wire they torch cut it through the armor. In one spot they doubled up the armor with just some shitty stick welding. The fire wall isn't even square with the hull!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw

To Bruce and the rest of you with interest in the history of this hull.

I was told this story by Mike, the guy who I bought this old hull from. As with all oral histories, take it for half truth and supposition.

The vehicle was a prototype and was being shown around by the company making it, trying to find buyers. This particular hull was shipped to Canada for presentation to the Canadian army. Presumably this was done in the Ottawa or Borden area around 1950-52. The vehicle was not impressive to the reviewing officers and was not accepted for further trials.
Presumably the vehicle was at the end of its life already since it was not going well finding a buyer. It was cheaper to leave it here in Canada as scrap then to ship it home to England. It went to a scrap yard. It was bought by an unknown party and chopped of all armor, then used as a bush machine. At some point they blew the transmission and it was a dead machine.
It was taken to a scrap yard outside Perth ON and dropped there for destruction. The owner of the yard didn't destroy it he just kept it out back.
Around 1983 it was rescued from the scrap yard by Mike Calnan, (of the Swords and Ploughshares museum) a fellow collector of old iron. He brought it to his yard where it sat beside many other old rusty pieces of treasure. There is a picture back in the previous posts of what it looked like when I found it.
I bought it in Oct of 2017. Brought it home and parked it for future consideration. I finished my Vickers reproduction and then a CMP water truck. Now I have gotten around to making this old machine work again.

That's how it came to be mine. There are no hull numbers that I can find, only part numbers. It is interesting since this was a prototype you can see how they welded different parts on for different trials. Stuff isn't square and isn't event the same thickness. Instead of nice drilled holes for the horn wire they torch cut it through the armor. In one spot they doubled up the armor with just some shitty stick welding. The fire wall isn't even square with the hull!

Thanks Jon, that's interesting. With regard to the poor welds and such: so a Canadian Tire wire welder and a small order from the Metal Supermarket and it will be as good as new?