Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

[Robin Craig]

Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I stand to be corrected because it's been a few years, but if I recall it wasn't so much the registration cost, it was insurance. With historic plates (I assume based on lower use) you paid a pittance. If you had regular plates you paid regular insurance as if it were your 'day' car. Maybe that's changed and you pay the full freight in both instances which make the historic plates useless as Robin says.

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you

[chris vickery]

Bruce, regular plate, regular insurance.
Historic plates, vintage insurance
Simple as that.
I asked my provider about usage of historic vehicles and according to him, as long as it was being used periodically, even for a country drive, this falls into the "exhibition/display/parade" category of useage.
I have never heard of any case of someone being charged under the HTA for operating a licensed and insured historic vehicle in a safe manner.
Maybe it has happened but one must remember the "spirit" of any law and the intentions behind it when it was written.
Most guys I know who operate antique vehicles belong to some sort of club or organization to promote their old vehicle. While not a lawyer, I think this would cover the "automobile club" stipulation.
When a guy has a whole shop full of restored vehicles it gets awfully expensive to plate and isure all of them using regular plates.
Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart

Chris, I see your signature block still indicates you are President of OMVA, so would you comment on my question above....

Stuart

3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889
1953 M38A1 CDN 53-33136
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M101 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M100 1/4T CDN trailer
1943 Chevy M6 G506
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, President-OMVA, MVPA, G503, Willys Forum, Steel Soldiers

[Harry Moon]

In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.

Harry, very useful information. Based on what you wrote, there would be an advantage if OMVA was able to get your procedures, and implement a similar documented process for those who drive Historic Military Vehicles in Ontario. This would be a significant value added service that would make membership in OMVA useful. The current format of just having two "shows/flea markets" a year seems to be of limited value to those not in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA).

Without getting into specifics, in Ontario, those who have an ATT, require a letter of invitation to those who transport going to a range not on the ATT. This requirement was implemented by the provincial CFA. I can see the importance of having a documented process, with full audit trail that is transparent. I don't think it would require much work, once the process was worked out.

Again, thanks for the details of how you keep folks in compliance in BC. Good stuff...

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.

In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I think "don't ask, don't tell" will get you a plate and insurance but I'd want to be on solid ground if there is a historic exemption for large, 'commercial' ones. If there isn't I wonder how far it goes? Would you need all those amber lights on the corners and top? That would somewhat ruin the authenticity. I also wonder what you would have to do to get trailer plates for a large trailer, say a four wheel 40cwt CMP type. There is no 'historic' trailer plate and your restoration would most likely be treated as a new trailer. Would that mean reflective red/white strips down its khaki side? Lastly, I imagine weight will also determine the class of driver's license you need to operate it. Even with historic plates your 'G' license won't allow you to operate something large enough to require a higher class.

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Harry Moon]

Procedures were pretty much in place when I came along in part to that tragedy many years ago. At the meetings annual events and regular trips are mentioned in the minutes and from time to time listed on Facebook, and the newsletter. For individuals who may be spread out sometimes some 100's of miles away the procedure is to email one of the executive with your date and purpose, who is participating and an executive member will reply and I instruct to print it out and keep the email with you.
So when Drew and Tami want to take out their ferret to a cruise in or tour around and they are all the way up in Salmo they are approved. I always add the caution of not to work or to school (unless part of a display or commemoration).
So far no problems and as from time to time we question our good fortune with the ICBC Vintage plates Vs. collector plates (another story) I only recently inquired if we could get a speaker from ICBC to come out to a meeting to answer questions. We have a convoy planned for 2016 to go to the MVPA convention in California. We frown on trailer queens!