Another Indian Pattern odd job: "C291QH 4x4 FAT for Royal Engineers"

[Hanno Spoelstra]

In David Hayward's lists of S/M (Supply Mechanical) contracts, S/M 2256 is listed with 480 examples of C291QH chassis exported to India. These were labelled as "4 x 4 F.A.T. for Royal Engineers", and until now there wasn't a clear picture of what this vehicle looked like. Just earlier on, I stumbled upon an old thread and found the answer was right here under my nose on MLU.

C291QH is mentioned in a "FORD ARMOURED VEHICLES Chassis Instruction Book" which lists a "Modified G.T. Chassis 4x4 C291QH":



Now, the C291QH is listed in an Instruction Book for Armoured General Purpose Vehicles together with it's sister chassis C291QR. As the latter was used for the Indian Pattern Wheeled Armoured Carrier, I think it is logical to deduce the latter chassis was used for the Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck - see the scan from Bart Vanderveen's book Historic Military Vehicle Directory:



The Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck has a low nose, necessitating a low-mounted radiator. If you take a close look at the C291QH chassis, one will note the radiator is mounted lower in the chassis, like in this C19QHF chassis:



According to the manual it has a single 12-1/4 gallon tank plus an auxiliary tank of unknown size to be installed when the hull was fitted.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Of course questions remain:

1) What did "H" stand for exactly? I can be deduced it stands for a the configuration of a standard FGT chassis, but without winch, a low-mounted radiator, amended fuel tank configuration and possibly some more small alterations to make it fit for purpose as the chassis of an armoured truck.

2) Why was it labelled "for Royal Engineers"? Did they carry out the conversions of the Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck, or were they the intended users?

3) How many Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Trucks were built?

CMPs - fascinating stuff, isn't it?!?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Seeing the low-mounted radiator reminded me of another Indian Pattern odd job: the so-called Indian pattern FATs with "armoured cab":



Note: I don't think it was actually a Cab 13 clad in armour, but rather a makeshift Indian cab. The cab looks too thin for armour plating, it is not rivetted and there is no armour in front of the radiator.

But I am now pretty much convinced these were based on the C291QH chassis. Just compare the level of the front edge of the cab to the top of the radiator on the bare chassis:



The makeshift Indian sheetmetal cab makes sense when out of 480 chassis delivered a number were not converted into the Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck. Not having any cab components, they must have made up a cab from mostly flat segments, and fitted it with the cargo body normally found on the Indian Pattern FAT.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

3) How many Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Trucks were built?

This picture shows at least two, reportedly in Pakistani army service:

[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943. The C291QH was 42-43 101 1/4wb.(third design) (modified FAT Chassis) Only two fuel tanks.
The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.
The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.
"H" is for Hanno!!!
I hope that helps a little.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943.

[snip]

The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.

From the article "India's Ford Wheeled Carriers" in Wheels & Tracks issue 42, we learn that various Marks of Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern were based on the following chassis:

C011QRF:
- Mark II: originally with GM banjo-type axles and 9.00-16 tyres
- Mark IIA: when quantity production got underway Ford split type axles and 10.50-16 tyres were installed
- Mark IIB

C191QRF: wider axles (78") with 6" front steering ends, 15" diameter brake drums and brake booster, heavier springs, hydraulic clutch actuation, 10.50-20 RF tyres
- Mark IIC

Note: the Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, NZ Pattern was fitted on the C191QRF chassis as well

C291QR: rearranged driver’s position with centrally mounted near-vertical driver’s position
- Mark IV




Legend:
C - Canadian design;
0 - 1940 model year; 1 – 1941 model year; 2 – 1942 model year
1 - engine type; intention was to fit all Canadian Ford Special Pattern MV’s with the 85-bhp engine, hence the “1”. The 95-bhp engine was finally standardized but he “1” stuck until the models were changed for 1941 and the figure became “9” as it should have been.
1 - wheelbase (101");
Q - four-wheel drive;
R - rear mounted engine;
F – right hand drive.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.

Lynn,

Indeed, see pictures of the C19QHF below. Do you know for what type of vehicle this chassis was used or intended?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, there were 3 designs, with the latest having a near vertical (short) steering column. The driver sat between the chassis rails (the floor fixed to the underside of the chassis???) and the master cylinders being above the hanging clutch and brake pedals. (hydraulic throttle as well)Low silhouette was "in", in 1943. The C291QH was 42-43 101 1/4wb.(third design) (modified FAT Chassis) Only two fuel tanks.
The 1941 C19QHF was134 1/4wb. Modified from CO1QF 3 ton Chassis. This had 4 full sized fuel tanks.
The 2nd design (1941-42) C191QRF was also 101 1/4 wb. 2 tanks.
1st design had 16" wheels the 2nd and 3rd designs had 20" wheels.
"H" is for Hanno!!!
I hope that helps a little.

Lynn,

It’s certainly helps. I can place the C191QRF and C19QHF chassis – see above.

But where does your reference to C291QH come from? Or were you referring to the C291QR chassis, which was the third design for the wheeled carrier.

If you have a reference C291QH does it support - or reject - the evidence presented here that the C291QH was intended to be used as the chassis for an armoured vehicle?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Lauren Child]

This might help - a hand written note in one copy of the Indian training manual.


Also, this page

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thank you Lauren! I take it these are the pages you referred to in Driver handbook scans and photocopies?

Originally Posted by Lauren Child

This might help - a hand written note in one copy of the Indian training manual.

In the top right hand section I think I read "stripped chassis"? But what is written exactly after the "H" (on the left below the entry for "W")?!?

Note: the "W" for 15-cwt is interesting.

Also, this page

The subject C291QH chassis is listed as a 1942 "stripped C011QF chassis", i.e. stripped FAT chassis of which at least the winch was stripped (see "-" in column "Winch").

Great stuff!

[Lauren Child]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thank you Lauren! I take it these are the pages you referred to in Driver handbook scans and photocopies?


In the top right hand section I think I read "stripped chassis"? But what is written exactly after the "H" (on the left below the entry for "W")?!?

Note: the "W" for 15-cwt is interesting.


The subject C291QH chassis is listed as a 1942 "stripped C011QF chassis", i.e. stripped FAT chassis of which at least the winch was stripped (see "-" in column "Winch").

Great stuff!

It is indeed!

The writing for the H on the right is really difficult to make out, so here is a closeup in the hopes that somebody on here can work it out. As it says Stripped on the typewritten page that may be it. On the left side it says "also 160".

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Back to this question:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Of course questions remain:
1) What did "H" stand for exactly?

The latest clue came from Lauren:

Originally Posted by Lauren Child

The writing for the H on the right is really difficult to make out, so here is a closeup in the hopes that somebody on here can work it out. As it says Stripped on the typewritten page that may be it. On the left side it says "also 160".

Indeed it seems "H" has written ?"stripped chassis"? behind it.


I found another staff car manual, stating "H" stands for "endroit de fabrication - siège social". That translates literally into "place of manufacture - head office". Would this mean the C291QH chassis was manufactured at Ford Canada's Windsor plant, rather than at one of their overseas assembly plants?


We'll have to keep searching....

[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, In reply to your post #8 of 2 1/2 years ago (sorry) that was a typo on my part.
The rear engined armoured car chassis (4x4,101 1/4"wb) was a C291QRF.
This from the second page in of the Ford special pattern vehicle book, 3rd edition.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, In reply to your post #8 of 2 1/2 years ago (sorry) that was a typo on my part.
The rear engined armoured car chassis (4x4,101 1/4"wb) was a C291QRF.
This from the second page in of the Ford special pattern vehicle book, 3rd edition.

Lynn, thanks for clearing that up!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

the C291QH is listed in an Instruction Book for Armoured General Purpose Vehicles together with it's sister chassis C291QR. As the latter was used for the Indian Pattern Wheeled Armoured Carrier, I think it is logical to deduce the latter chassis was used for the Indian Pattern 4x4 Armoured Truck - see the scan from Bart Vanderveen's book Historic Military Vehicle Directory:

Pierre-Olivier Buan posted pictures on FB of a survivor at the Defense Services Museum, Naypyidaw, Myanmar/Burma:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Photo of an forward artillery position with an Indian Pattern Armoured truck. In service in Northwest India, 1945.

Courtesy of Aaron Smith.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Look real close to see an Indian Pattern Amoured Car in the background of this photo taken in Burma, c.1949?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Pierre-Olivier Buan posted pictures on FB of a survivor at the Defense Services Museum, Naypyidaw, Myanmar/Burma:

Aaron Smith sent a better picture of the surviving Indian Pattern Armoured truck in the open air museum exhibit area in Myanmar/Burma. Note the added turret.




I did a little more digging on facebook and found another photo. They have an Indian Pattern Wheeled Carrier, too.



Source: "Naypyidaw is the new capital of Myanmar which is around 5 hours ride from Yangon, the country's old capital."
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...0542504&type=3

[Tony Smith]

Interesting hub centres on front and rear axles, quite unlike any other CMP hub.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Interesting hub centres on front and rear axles, quite unlike any other CMP hub.

Indeed. Look at their IP Wheeled Carrier, that one looks like it has strange hubs and wheels too.

Could they have had some sort of “midlife update”?


Source: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...738#post277738