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#1
19-06-09, 10:45
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Pattern '37 Bren Mag pouches
Just to identify a relatively uncommon item of Pattern '37 webbing, the Bren Gunner's Mag pouch:
These pouches at first glance appear to be similar to the standard Basic pouch, but there are differences. The Bren Mag pouch is thicker in section to hold 3x 30rd Mags. It is not secured to the belt like the Basic pouch, but the set has it's own thinner web strap that is sewn to the front pouch and fits through a loop in the rear pouch. These are worn on the left side of the torso at the front and rear. This particular pair are made by Zephyr Looms and Textiles, Canada in 1943. 
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#2
19-06-09, 10:55
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And just to compare, here is the standard Basic Pouch. this used 2 brass clips to secure to the web belt, and buckles to fit a shoulder strap. This was much more a utility pouch with multiple uses.
Each pouch could hold around 100rds of .303 ammunition (3x 32rd cartons, 2x 48rd carton, or 2x 50 bandoliers), 2x 30rd Bren Mags, 3x No36 Mills Grenades, or a variety of other combinations.
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#3
19-06-09, 11:52
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1937 Pattern Web Equipment
Tony, thank you for the images of the web equipment, what you have in your top posting is a set of Utility Pouches and the bottom post shows what is known as a Basic Pouch. Here are the details and some images,
The Utility Pouches were issued as a pair, front and rear that were attached by a 2.5cm (1in) web strap at the bottom and a web Yoke at the top. Each Utility Pouch was a rectangular web case that was designed to carry three Bren 30 round magazines, or two Anti-tank Rifle Magazines, or Small Arms Ammunition, or a number of Grenades, or a Water Bottle. They were secured with a flap at the top, hinged at the rear, which was fastened with a brass stud fastener on a short web tab. The inside of the flap on Canadian Basic Pouches has three web loops sewn on it, these are to secure three Balistite Cartridges which are used to launch grenades from the Rifle when a Cup Discharger is used. Each Pouch is labelled front and rear; the difference being that at the bottom of the rear of the front Pouch was attached a 2.5cm (1in) strap similar to the Supporting Strap; in that it had a 2.5cm (1in) buckle on one end and a metal end-cap on the other. The rear Pouch had a web slot at the rear in which the metal end-cap was slipped through. At the top rear of the Pouch was a 4.0cm (1½in) metal buckle for attachment to the Yoke. The web material used to secure this buckle to the Pouch has a gap between it and the pouch in which the Yoke passes through. The Utility Pouches were designed to be worn diagonally across the rear of the wearer so that the front Pouch was on the front left hand side of the wearer and the rear Pouch was on the rear right hand side of the wearer. The Yoke would run across the back. When secured, the 2.5cm (1in) metal buckle and eyeletted end-piece were centred at the front of the wearer just above the centre buckle of Waistbelt. In order to unencumber the wearer, the Utility Pouches could also be secured around the Haversack with a Pouch mounted on each end, the Yoke passing under the top flap of the Haversack, and the web strap wrapped around the body of the Haversack. This was done by some units for the Normandy Invasion when large amounts of equipment were carried for the initial assault. Utility Pouches were to be issued at a scale of four sets for each Bren Gun (for the carriage of 24 Magazines) and two sets for each Anti-tank Rifle (for the carriage of 8 Magazines).    The Utility Pouch Yoke was a wide section of 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section with a 5.0cm (2in) web strap at each end. Yokes were manufactured in two distinct ways, the first was the original method were the 6.4cm (2½in) wide portion for the shoulders narrows to the 5.0cm (2in) strap. The second method is a 5.0cm (2in) strap is encased in a tapered 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section. In all cases the ends of the straps have metal eyeletted end-pieces.  The Basic Pouch was a rectangular web case that was designed to carry two Bren 30 round magazines, or Small Arms Ammunition or Grenades. They were interchangeable and secured with a flap at the top, hinged at the rear, which was fastened with a brass stud fastener on a short web tab. The inside of the flap on Canadian Basic Pouches has three web loops sewn on it, these are to secure three Balistite Cartridges which are used to launch grenades from the Rifle when a Cup Discharger is used. At the bottom of the rear of the Pouch was a pair of metal hooks that fastened into the flat web loops of the Waistbelt. At the top rear of the Pouch is a triple slot metal buckle for attachment to the Braces and the metal hook on the Shoulder Straps. The web material used to secure this buckle to the Pouch has a gap between it and the pouch in which the Brace passes through. Canadian produced Basic Pouches were manufactured in three sizes to meet the changing needs of the military as new weapons were developed. There were, however, four distinct types produced during the Second World War. The difference in the four types is the overall length of the pouch as well as the way in which the triple slot metal buckle is attached to the pouch. The first type of pouch is the original 1937 Pattern designed to carry two Bren magazines and was in production until 1942. The second type is a lengthened pouch that was designed so that the 30 round Sten magazines could be carried inside and was introduced in 1942 when the Sten began to begin to be issued. The first type of pouch was not long enough to accommodate the Sten magazine. The third type uses a different version of the triple slot metal buckle, which was manufactured in steel instead of brass. The fourth type employs the same triple slot metal buckle as the third type, but it is longer then the other three and more importantly, was specifically designed to accommodate the 32 round 9mm Sten Magazine. The other major distinguishing features of this fourth type is that first of all the three web loops, sewn into the inside flap for Balistite Cartridges, have been discontinued. Secondly, there are sections of web sewn into the top of the pouch in order to lengthen it. All four pouches were issued concurrently and no distinction was made officially between them. Each is stamped ‘SMALL’ on the back.  This image shows the three different sized variations of Basic Pouch as well as the Basic Pouch which was designed for Sten Magazines.   
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#4
19-06-09, 12:12
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MLU does it again
MLU seems to have the answers for just about ANYTHING .... I'm impressed
__________________
1940 cab 11 C8 1940 Morris-Commercial PU 1941 Morris-Commercial CS8 1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.) 1942-45 Jeep salad
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#5
17-01-10, 00:22
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Today I was digging through a pile of "FRONTS" & found this one that is a little different.
It has a rounded bottom No markings on the inside On the top strap yolk it has a circle with what looks to be the top half of a 5 point star & under it it looks like nl 507 Under that is a large "F" (front?) & DOM. A. CO 1951 Hard to see markings.  Rounded bottom  Pic for referance of the circle marking, with "ARROW" ? 
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#6
17-01-10, 01:15
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Quote:
Following my original post, entirely unsolicited, Charlie Fitton generously offered to post me a Cdn Yoke Strap to complete my Utility Pouch pair. Your gesture is thoroughly appreciated and gratefully accepted.  
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#7
11-02-10, 07:51
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Re: Bren Gun or Utility Pouches (aka-Bren Gun Bras)
Hello!
My name is Keyan Noble and I'm a new member to this forum. Good information on the Bren Gun (Utility) Pouches; aka the Bren Gunn Bra.
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#8
11-02-10, 16:17
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Re: Bren Gun or Utility Pouches (aka-Bren Gun Bras)
Hi!
I recently purchased 2 of these Rear Bren Gun (Utility) Pouches from a local tool/hardware store, Princess Auto (www.princessauto.com), p/n 8305303; thinking that they were Basic Pouchees. I paid $9.99 each plus the 13% Nova Scotia Provincial Sales, which came to a total of $22.58 Canadian for the pair. They are in mint, new, factory-unissued condition (no stains or fadding); tan in color; C-Broad Arrow marked; Manufacturerstamped Z.L.&T.Ltd. (Zephyr Looms & Textiles Limited); 1940 War Dated; have brass snap closure and strap attaching hardware (no oxidization or corrosion); and are inked stamped "REAR" on the center of their backs. It is my understanding that the soldiers who used the Utility Pouches as a set (Rear Pouch, Front Pouch with Waiste Belt permanently sewn on the bottom of its back, and the Yoke Strap) in their respective units, commonly referred to them as the Bren Gun Bra. My Senior NCO of my Re-Enactment Unit, Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit (We're on Kijiji and Facebook.), advised me that they had a set of these in his last Re-Enactment Unit in northern British Columbia. Would anyone be able to tell me where I can get my hands on a Yoke Strap; and, if possible, the Waiste Strap in the same condtions as my 2 Rear Utility Pouches mentioned above? Ideally, I would like to use my to rear pouches to make up my Bren Gun Bra Set. Is this possible? If not, where can I get my hands on 2 Font Pouches with attached Waiste Belt and 2 Yoke Straps (in same condtion as my Rear Pouches stated above)? Your assitance in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and keep up the good work on this site! Rgs...Pte. Keyan Noble Rifleman, Dutch Resistance Fighter & Unit Weapons NCO Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit 
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#9
11-02-10, 16:34
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Re: Bren Gun or Utility Pouches (aka-Bren Gun Bras)
Hi!
Enclosed below is the product and vendor information. Princess Auto-Winnipeg Mail Order Office P.O. Box 1005 Winnipeg, MB Canada R3C 2W7 Phone Toll Free: 1-800-665-8685 Fax Toll Free: 1-800-265-4212 Shop Online: www.princessauto.com Note: Princess Auto has stores all across Canada. See their Online Catalogue for their contact information. The Rear Utility Pouches were purchased in the Surplus Section of thier store here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada; and may not be listed in their Online Catalogue. These pouches are listed as: Pouch, p/n 8305302. I hope this information is useful to any of those who are interested. Rgs... Pte. Keyan Noble Rifleman, Dutch Resistance Fighter & Unit Weapons NCO Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit
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#10
11-02-10, 16:49
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I posted in another thread that I have the yokes for $2 each plus shipping. Just send me a PM with your details and I'll get them out to you.
__________________
Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer
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#11
12-02-10, 04:59
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Call Them What They Are
These pouches are called UTILITY POUCHES, they are NOT called Bren Pouches NOR are should they ever be called a 'Bren Gun Bra'. These pouches were designed to carry a variety of SAA, Ammunition, Magazines and even a Water Bottle. The set consists of a Front and Rear Pouch with a Yoke. This is what the set looks like.
The Utility Pouches were designed to carry any of these items.
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#12
12-02-10, 12:15
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Keyan,
I'll send you a PM tonight as I have some of the Bren Gun Bra Yokes. I should be able to get you some for the ZLT 1940 stamps.
__________________
Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer
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#13
12-02-10, 17:21
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Re: Utility (Bren Gun) Pouches (aka-Bren Gun Bra)
Good Morning All!
In reference to edstorey's last post: The naming of these pouches. He is correct on this matter to a certain extent. The "Actual Military Name" for these pouches (either when used as a set; or just the Front Pouch) is the "Utility Pouch". The other commonly referred to names used here refer to the specific use by specific military personnel; namely, Bren Gun Crews. We all know that these pouches can each hold 3-30 round Bren Gun Magazines. Right? That's a given. Therefore, from a Bren Gunner's perspective, comes one of the given common names, the "Bren Gun Pouch". The "Bren Gun Bra" name is derived from the way these Utility Pouches are worn and used by the Bren Gun Crews. All other military personnel would simply call these pouches the "Utility Pouch" when worn or used differently. (See my earlier posts.) In this manner, the Front Pouch is found in its usual location-Left Chest Area; and the Rear Pouch is found on the Right Chest Area. The Yoke Strap is slung over the wearer's neck, while the Waist Strap is wrapped around his torso. This method somewhat resembles a woman's undergarment ... the bra. Therefore, from the Bren Gunner's perspective, comes the other common name for these pouches, the "Bren Gun Bra". This format allows quick and easy access to the Bren Gun Magazines for the Bren No. 2 (the person who loads and unloads the magazines from the Bren Gun, normally a Private) from both the Bren Group Leader (the person in charge of the Bren Gun Crew, a Lance-Corporal) and himself; while the Bren No. 2 (the person who carries and operates the Bren Gun, normally a Private) concentrates on firing the Bren Gun on enemy targets. For the Bren Gun Crews in the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion (aka-1st CanPara) this method was standard; not only in combat and training exercises, but in Parachute Jumping as well. This allowed the jumping Bren Gun Crews to carry all the necessary Bren Gun Ammo to complete their mission, while wearing a parachute on their backs and jumping out of an aircraft. To make a long story short ... we are both correct in the names of these pouches. It's just the matter of context of how they were used and by whom. Finally, I take no offence to edstorey's comments in his last post. Nor do I intend the same to him or any other member of this forum in this one. Infact, I find edstorey's posting informative, useful and very well laid out. My soul intention was to clairify all the terminology used in this subject; and by no means imply that I know all if it.  Keep up the good work! Rgs... Pte. Keyan Noble Rifleman, Dutch Ressistance Member & Unit Weapons NCO Maritimes world War 2 Re-Enactment Unit
__________________
If you live by the sword ... you will die by the bullet! - me
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#14
13-02-10, 07:38
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Two Things
Keyan:
Are you currently in the military? If not, then please do us all a favour and stop signing your posts with your re-enactment rank. Your attempt to explain terminology from a 'Bren Gunner's perspective' only muddies the water and is I suspect based on re-enacter information and not facts from 70 years ago. Your 'given common names' are not correct and nor are we 'both correct' as you state, but far from it. You are in fact incorrect in using made up names in order attempt to give a name to a piece of web equipment that already has an established official name, that being Utility Pouches. If you wish to compare web equipment to ladies undergarments or make up pet names for the pieces then go ahead and enjoy yourself, just stop trying to convince everyone else that these names are correct or somehow fit into their use during the Second World War. Have a look at a copy of the Fitting Instructions for 1937 Pattern Web Equipment and you will learn not only the correct terminolgy for the individual pieces, but also how they were to be used.
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#15
13-02-10, 10:43
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Quote:
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#17
14-02-10, 07:55
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for what it may be worth...
I first saw these pouches in the Osprey title: "British Infantry Equipment 1908-80" Men at Arms series no 108 published in 1980. This was written and illustrated by Mike Chappell who had served many years in the British Army.
The image in the colour plates in the centre shows the auxiliary pouches worn around the neck. Can someone provide photographic evidence of them in use in WW2? I guess it is a bit like entrenching tools. The 'book' descibes the item provided, yet photos of Kiwi infantry in Italy clearly show Bulldog brand GS shovels and picks carried instead. Rob
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#18
14-02-10, 16:35
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entrenching tools:
Quote:
When we started the HLIofC group here in Cambridge (about a million years ago) we had an interesting problem - couldn't find enough entrenching tools. We did have a few and at an early display for the Vets, we apologized for not having enough to go round. The vets emphatically advised us that they chucked that usless tool, and prefferred to dig in with real tools.
__________________
Charles Fitton Maryhill On., Canada too many carriers too many rovers not enough time. (and now a BSA...) (and now a Triumph TRW...)
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#19
14-02-10, 17:03
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Quote:
My take on it is that if there was a mechanic, then there was a truck, and if there was a truck, then there was a real shovel.
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#20
22-02-10, 04:43
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I think the illustration on page 26 of 'From D-Day to VE-Day The Canadian Soldier' best shows how these pouches were worn by soldiers of an infantry section Bren group.
I have heard these called many names...supplementary, auxillary, bras, utility, bren, you name it. I don't think anyone knows for sure. Certainly nothing to get all huffy about...we all know what they are when we hear any of the designations mentioned in this thread. With respect Dale
__________________
ARTE et MARTE by skill and by fighting Royal Canadian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers
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#21
22-02-10, 05:14
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Re: Bren (Utility) Pouches
Hi All,
That's exactly my point. I just thought I'd mention it for those of you who didn't know. Rgs...Keyan
__________________
If you live by the sword ... you will die by the bullet! - me
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#22
23-02-10, 11:31
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My Point Is...
That apparently none of you know what you are talking about when you have to go and use half-a-dozen made up names for something that already has a name. The name is known and according to WWII military documentation the pouches in question are called Utility Pouches, plain and simple. The pouches were issued with a number of weapons systems so calling them 'Bren Pouches' is not correct and for heavens sake they were not called a 'Bren Bra'.
What is a huge joke is you then get people coming onto the forum trying to put some historical spin onto how these pieces of webbing should be named after ladies undergarments because apparently that is how they look when worn. It really becomes blatantanly obvious that these 'pet names' do not work when you have people asking for clarification on what these items are every time someone posts that they are for sale. What is wrong with saying that you saw a box of Rear, Canadian made, Utility Pouches for sale at Princess Auto rather than using one of the other made up names? This is still leaves room on the thread to discuss the manufacture and year stamps if everyone is so inclined. What I am curious about is how do you guys order parts for your vehicle restorations? Do you go and make up names for each part as well? If so, it must drive the dealers crazy.
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#23
23-02-10, 12:29
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Well actually it gets rather interesting when ordering the good old "doohickie" part. Huge difference if its on a CMP or Carrier. You wouldn't want to make that mistake too many times. Then when you mix in "thingamajig" whoa buddy it worse even more. Don't get me started on that one.
I guess too that if I call the great Utility Pouches, a Bren Bra, everyone in the civilized world will now know what im talking about. Why because everyone should read right, You yourself have said that many a time on various forums. Well, all of us here on MLU and the rest of the civilized world read this forum. Reading is good, Ive read whats on this forum so it all must be good. Therefore im set. Actually I think im going to go back to restoring vehicles as I seem to get along better with them. Can't wait for the summer living history (reenacting) season to open up again to put on some fantastic displays for the public. Come out an see me with my Bren Gun Carrier (Universal Carrier Mk1*, for those that care (saw it too in a book)) and Jeep. I'll have em loaded down in with Bren Gun bra's (Utility Pouches, just to keep things clear).
__________________
Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer
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#24
23-02-10, 12:31
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Sorry, forgot to take my tounge out of my cheek or is it my foot out of my ass on that last posting. Wait thats someone else. K im good my tounge is no longer in my cheek. Phew that was close.
__________________
Jordan Baker RHLI Museum, Otter LRC C15A-Wire3, 1944 Willys MB, 1942 10cwt Canadian trailer
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#25
23-02-10, 18:40
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Quote:
I respect your knowledge when it comes to Canadian militaria and I do recommend your books, but jeez...lighten up a bit. I have the WWII pamphlet that you mentioned, but most people don't(Yes, they are called utility pouches in said pamphlet), but for all intents and purposes...people have the freedom to call them what they like. A lot of the terms I heard came from vets themselves. So far I have not seen any pictures of soldiers wearing the 'utility' pouches either than the members of a Bren group. If anyone has pictures to share, please do. Again, with respect Dale
__________________
ARTE et MARTE by skill and by fighting Royal Canadian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers
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#27
23-02-10, 18:58
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Quote:
Dale
__________________
ARTE et MARTE by skill and by fighting Royal Canadian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers
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#28
23-02-10, 21:28
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Utility Pouch sets
Hi Guys,
just a few points which seem to have been adding confusion to the pot, hope this clears things up: 1. the pouch set was worn with the FRONT pouch on the LEFT breast, left of or above the P37 pouch , depending on how high one wore their web gear. The REAR pouch was positioned BEHIND the wearer's RIGHT shoulder just to the right of the small pack. All quite comfortable, though with six addition magazines somewhat weighty. 2. a Bren magazine should NEVER be inserted into the magazine well with the firer's left hand, unless in an emergency. The right hand should be removed from the pistol grip and used to insert the magazine. This eliminates any chance that the trigger may be squeezed during loading, which will either send the bolt forward on an empty chamber or the first round in the magazine. 3. with the sling over the shoulder the balance of the Bren gun should be held by the carry handle (locked down and folded outward for assault) or as was often done the left bipod leg. 4. Many military items receive other than official names, not saying I like some of them but I do recall hearing a few for the side cap, which referred to female genitalia. It was common practice, though most likely not within earshot of any officer. In order that we don't confuse ourselves any more than we are already are, perhaps official nomenclature should be used, when known. My 'tuppence' worth, Dave
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#29
24-02-10, 03:00
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designation
Here I am,.....having learnt what the real name of these things is/are. All humbled and with the knowledge that these are utility pouches..... Then along comes Jones...(sorry I meant post No.26), and I see a new name. "Pouch Ammunition, Auxillary".... Well its on a document..... Thats the best evidence I've seen so far on this thread. ......Thats it for me, for now, on that one.
I've got enough of the"saggy man boobs" thing without wearing a bra as well. More seriously, I think it is important to use the correct designation/ nomenclature, when descibing things, military. If nothing else it saves the time wasted, by the confusion. Once the mis-nomer has spread, its hard to fix. Example the Bren Carrier. You Canadians have never had real ones, but from here, it is obvious that you all call your 30,000 "Universals", "Brens"and have done so for sixty years! It strictly speaking, aint right!....But, it aint gonna change either. ...By the way...No offence intended
__________________
Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions....
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#30
24-02-10, 03:36
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Re: Bren (Utility) Pouches
Hi All,
Try Googling: "Perth Regiment"; then click on the Regiment's (Re-Enacted) Handbook. In there they have some photos of how the Utility Pouch was also worn. I too have had Vets (Bren Gunners-Infantry & Airborne) come up to me (and any member of my Re-Enactment Unit) and say the Utility Pouch is called a "Bren Pouch", "Bren Gun Pouch"; and when shown that they have been worn (both pouches) on the wearer's chest, refer to them as "Bren Gun Bra" or "Bra". Later on in the war, a sewn canvas version that could only be worn in this manner was also referred to as such; however, mostly just the term "Bra", as mentioned in From D-Day To VE-Day, The Canadian Soldier 1944-1945. If one goes to various Internet Vendors selling the P-37 Web Equipment, they too often call them (as did the Vets and ex-service men using them) Bren Pouches, Ammo Pouches; and, sometimes mistakenly as "Basic Pouches". The point trying to be made here is ... like todays military, and I'm sure this also holds true during WW2, personnel develop their own terminologies (including the instructors) for their equipment; and, also developed modified usage of this equipment, most oftenly during combat, which led to even further new given, generic, pet or made up names. Subsequently, these modifications were passed on back to the manufacturers, recorded in the "List of Changes" (some were not); and newer versions of the equipment were made. Look at the history of the Lee-Enfield No.4Mk1 rifle to name one example of thousands. So if someone, a Vet and/or an ex-serviceman says that item there is a "Ammo Pouch", "Bren Pouch" or "Bren Gun Pouch"; and when worn in a certain manner, is called a "Bren Gun Bra" or "Bra" we all know its official name ... the Utility Pouch. One other major point to mention here. Most often than not Vets using this equipment didn't know the propper names. They were tought what their instructors called it. That also applies for how they were to use it as well. In combat, even the lonely soldier wore his kit as it suited him and his needs, contrary to published regulations. This is just more food to the fodder to chew on the subject. Rgs... Keyan
__________________
If you live by the sword ... you will die by the bullet! - me
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