Pattern '37 Bren Mag pouches

Ed Storey · #1 19-06-09, 11:52

Tony, thank you for the images of the web equipment, what you have in your top posting is a set of Utility Pouches and the bottom post shows what is known as a Basic Pouch. Here are the details and some images,

The Utility Pouches were issued as a pair, front and rear that were attached by a 2.5cm (1in) web strap at the bottom and a web Yoke at the top. Each Utility Pouch was a rectangular web case that was designed to carry three Bren 30 round magazines, or two Anti-tank Rifle Magazines, or Small Arms Ammunition, or a number of Grenades, or a Water Bottle. They were secured with a flap at the top, hinged at the rear, which was fastened with a brass stud fastener on a short web tab. The inside of the flap on Canadian Basic Pouches has three web loops sewn on it, these are to secure three Balistite Cartridges which are used to launch grenades from the Rifle when a Cup Discharger is used. Each Pouch is labelled front and rear; the difference being that at the bottom of the rear of the front Pouch was attached a 2.5cm (1in) strap similar to the Supporting Strap; in that it had a 2.5cm (1in) buckle on one end and a metal end-cap on the other. The rear Pouch had a web slot at the rear in which the metal end-cap was slipped through. At the top rear of the Pouch was a 4.0cm (1½in) metal buckle for attachment to the Yoke. The web material used to secure this buckle to the Pouch has a gap between it and the pouch in which the Yoke passes through.

The Utility Pouches were designed to be worn diagonally across the rear of the wearer so that the front Pouch was on the front left hand side of the wearer and the rear Pouch was on the rear right hand side of the wearer. The Yoke would run across the back. When secured, the 2.5cm (1in) metal buckle and eyeletted end-piece were centred at the front of the wearer just above the centre buckle of Waistbelt. In order to unencumber the wearer, the Utility Pouches could also be secured around the Haversack with a Pouch mounted on each end, the Yoke passing under the top flap of the Haversack, and the web strap wrapped around the body of the Haversack. This was done by some units for the Normandy Invasion when large amounts of equipment were carried for the initial assault.

Utility Pouches were to be issued at a scale of four sets for each Bren Gun (for the carriage of 24 Magazines) and two sets for each Anti-tank Rifle (for the carriage of 8 Magazines).

The Utility Pouch Yoke was a wide section of 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section with a 5.0cm (2in) web strap at each end. Yokes were manufactured in two distinct ways, the first was the original method were the 6.4cm (2½in) wide portion for the shoulders narrows to the 5.0cm (2in) strap. The second method is a 5.0cm (2in) strap is encased in a tapered 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section. In all cases the ends of the straps have metal eyeletted end-pieces.

The Basic Pouch was a rectangular web case that was designed to carry two Bren 30 round magazines, or Small Arms Ammunition or Grenades. They were interchangeable and secured with a flap at the top, hinged at the rear, which was fastened with a brass stud fastener on a short web tab. The inside of the flap on Canadian Basic Pouches has three web loops sewn on it, these are to secure three Balistite Cartridges which are used to launch grenades from the Rifle when a Cup Discharger is used. At the bottom of the rear of the Pouch was a pair of metal hooks that fastened into the flat web loops of the Waistbelt. At the top rear of the Pouch is a triple slot metal buckle for attachment to the Braces and the metal hook on the Shoulder Straps. The web material used to secure this buckle to the Pouch has a gap between it and the pouch in which the Brace passes through.

Canadian produced Basic Pouches were manufactured in three sizes to meet the changing needs of the military as new weapons were developed. There were, however, four distinct types produced during the Second World War. The difference in the four types is the overall length of the pouch as well as the way in which the triple slot metal buckle is attached to the pouch. The first type of pouch is the original 1937 Pattern designed to carry two Bren magazines and was in production until 1942. The second type is a lengthened pouch that was designed so that the 30 round Sten magazines could be carried inside and was introduced in 1942 when the Sten began to begin to be issued. The first type of pouch was not long enough to accommodate the Sten magazine. The third type uses a different version of the triple slot metal buckle, which was manufactured in steel instead of brass. The fourth type employs the same triple slot metal buckle as the third type, but it is longer then the other three and more importantly, was specifically designed to accommodate the 32 round 9mm Sten Magazine. The other major distinguishing features of this fourth type is that first of all the three web loops, sewn into the inside flap for Balistite Cartridges, have been discontinued. Secondly, there are sections of web sewn into the top of the pouch in order to lengthen it. All four pouches were issued concurrently and no distinction was made officially between them. Each is stamped ‘SMALL’ on the back.

This image shows the three different sized variations of Basic Pouch as well as the Basic Pouch which was designed for Sten Magazines.

Mike K · #2 19-06-09, 12:12

MLU seems to have the answers for just about ANYTHING .... I'm impressed

jeepingpw · #3 17-01-10, 00:22

Today I was digging through a pile of "FRONTS" & found this one that is a little different.

It has a rounded bottom

No markings on the inside

On the top strap yolk it has a circle with what looks to be the top half of a 5 point star & under it it looks like
nl 507

Under that is a large "F" (front?)

&

DOM. A. CO
1951

Hard to see markings.

Rounded bottom

Pic for referance of the circle marking, with "ARROW" ?

Mk1rceme · #4 23-02-10, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeepingpw

Today I was digging through a pile of "FRONTS" & found this one that is a little different.

It has a rounded bottom

No markings on the inside

On the top strap yolk it has a circle with what looks to be the top half of a 5 point star & under it it looks like
nl 507

Under that is a large "F" (front?)

&

DOM. A. CO
1951

Hard to see markings.

Rounded bottom

Pic for referance of the circle marking, with "ARROW" ?

Neat pouch! Dom. A. Co. is Dominion Awning Co., and that arrow stamp...I think the correct terminology is the 'Canadian Technical Inspection Services Stamp'. If anyone wants to correct or concur this term, please do.

Dale

Dave Page · #5 23-02-10, 21:28

Hi Guys,
just a few points which seem to have been adding confusion to the pot, hope this clears things up:
1. the pouch set was worn with the FRONT pouch on the LEFT breast, left of or above the P37 pouch , depending on how high one wore their web gear. The REAR pouch was positioned BEHIND the wearer's RIGHT shoulder just to the right of the small pack. All quite comfortable, though with six addition magazines somewhat weighty.

2. a Bren magazine should NEVER be inserted into the magazine well with the firer's left hand, unless in an emergency. The right hand should be removed from the pistol grip and used to insert the magazine. This eliminates any chance that the trigger may be squeezed during loading, which will either send the bolt forward on an empty chamber or the first round in the magazine.

3. with the sling over the shoulder the balance of the Bren gun should be held by the carry handle (locked down and folded outward for assault) or as was often done the left bipod leg.

4. Many military items receive other than official names, not saying I like some of them but I do recall hearing a few for the side cap, which referred to female genitalia. It was common practice, though most likely not within earshot of any officer.

In order that we don't confuse ourselves any more than we are already are, perhaps official nomenclature should be used, when known.
My 'tuppence' worth,
Dave

Lynn Eades · #6 24-02-10, 03:00

Here I am,.....having learnt what the real name of these things is/are. All humbled and with the knowledge that these are utility pouches..... Then along comes Jones...(sorry I meant post No.26), and I see a new name. "Pouch Ammunition, Auxillary".... Well its on a document..... Thats the best evidence I've seen so far on this thread. ......Thats it for me, for now, on that one.
I've got enough of the"saggy man boobs" thing without wearing a bra as well.
More seriously, I think it is important to use the correct designation/ nomenclature, when descibing things, military. If nothing else it saves the time wasted, by the confusion.
Once the mis-nomer has spread, its hard to fix. Example the Bren Carrier.
You Canadians have never had real ones, but from here, it is obvious that you all call your 30,000 "Universals", "Brens"and have done so for sixty years!
It strictly speaking, aint right!....But, it aint gonna change either. ...By the way...No offence intended

kajn65 · #7 24-02-10, 03:36

Hi All,

Try Googling: "Perth Regiment"; then click on the Regiment's (Re-Enacted) Handbook.

In there they have some photos of how the Utility Pouch was also worn.

I too have had Vets (Bren Gunners-Infantry & Airborne) come up to me (and any member of my Re-Enactment Unit) and say the Utility Pouch is called a "Bren Pouch", "Bren Gun Pouch"; and when shown that they have been worn (both pouches) on the wearer's chest, refer to them as "Bren Gun Bra" or "Bra". Later on in the war, a sewn canvas version that could only be worn in this manner was also referred to as such; however, mostly just the term "Bra", as mentioned in From D-Day To VE-Day, The Canadian Soldier 1944-1945.

If one goes to various Internet Vendors selling the P-37 Web Equipment, they too often call them (as did the Vets and ex-service men using them) Bren Pouches, Ammo Pouches; and, sometimes mistakenly as "Basic Pouches".

The point trying to be made here is ... like todays military, and I'm sure this also holds true during WW2, personnel develop their own terminologies (including the instructors) for their equipment; and, also developed modified usage of this equipment, most oftenly during combat, which led to even further new given, generic, pet or made up names. Subsequently, these modifications were passed on back to the manufacturers, recorded in the "List of Changes" (some were not); and newer versions of the equipment were made. Look at the history of the Lee-Enfield No.4Mk1 rifle to name one example of thousands.

So if someone, a Vet and/or an ex-serviceman says that item there is a "Ammo Pouch", "Bren Pouch" or "Bren Gun Pouch"; and when worn in a certain manner, is called a "Bren Gun Bra" or "Bra" we all know its official name ... the Utility Pouch.

One other major point to mention here. Most often than not Vets using this equipment didn't know the propper names. They were tought what their instructors called it. That also applies for how they were to use it as well. In combat, even the lonely soldier wore his kit as it suited him and his needs, contrary to published regulations.

This is just more food to the fodder to chew on the subject.

Rgs...

Keyan

Dave Page · #8 24-02-10, 18:19

Hi,
I took a peek at the Perth Regiment (re-enacted) and saw the image mentioned, however that is not exactly how the set is meant to be worn. The problem is in the design, the rear pouch slides on the girth strap (for want of a better term) which allows it to creep toward the left and tend to slide off the shoulder when the haversack is not carried. I have a manual -somewhere- that shows how it should be worn.
Cheers,
Dave

Mike Timoshyk · #9 25-02-10, 05:20

Life is far too short......I have kept my thoughts to myself after several different threads....but you know...this whole thing about collecting and restoring and history in my mind is supposed to be fun....I have no time for the rude, the obnoxious and the high and mighty ..... by the way....I don't know about most....but I do know that although an AOR is called a tanker it really isn't is it?

Mike in Windsor

Lang · #10 07-03-10, 03:02

I suppose I should keep my mouth shut but can't resist.

The 37 pattern webbing was probably the most uncomfortable, ill-fitting carrying system of any army of the 20th century. Those who have worn it will say without a shadow of a doubt, it could not be carried for any length of time done up like the pictures in the manual.

The buckles were terrible - difficult to adjust, they slipped and anything requiring very tight straps meant you had to work on a loop out of half the buckle. The canvas was too thick and inflexible and had numerous seams which cut into your back and shoulders.

Look at any picture and you will see fellows with them high, low, pouches close at front or almost on their hips all trying to achieve the impossible goal of comfort.

I am quite sure if you trolled through photos of any British Commonwealth soldiers of the 30's-60's period you will see pouches (the Australian Army called them nothing but "basic pouches" or maybe "bren magazine basic pouches") being worn in every conceivable position, front, back, strapped to packs or hung off belts like cowboy six-shooters, some people with only one others with four.

I don't know about the Canadian Army but I spent a bit of time in the Australian Army and NOBODY called equipment by it's "correct" name. In fact the correct stocktake or Q-Store names are a source of endless juvenile jokes in the military ie Cover, Rubber or equiv, 6 inch, protection, penis, soldier for the use of.

Some of these posts remind me of the "experts" who come up during airshows and tell you the 1942 Stearman did not get a brown throttle knob until 3 serial numbers after your aircraft. They know a real lot about aeroplanes but they know Nothing about flying.

Soldiers are people, they don't talk like in the movies with sergeants and officers ordering people around in authoritative tones using military abbreviations and jargon as their main form of speech. As someone noted most soldiers from privates to generals (excluding Ordnance Corps and Q-Store people) would have no idea what the official book name is for half the equipment they use.

Let's lighten up.

Lang

Tony Smith · #11 17-01-10, 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstorey

The Utility Pouch Yoke was a wide section of 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section with a 5.0cm (2in) web strap at each end. Yokes were manufactured in two distinct ways, the first was the original method were the 6.4cm (2½in) wide portion for the shoulders narrows to the 5.0cm (2in) strap. The second method is a 5.0cm (2in) strap is encased in a tapered 6.4cm (2½in) web shoulder section. In all cases the ends of the straps have metal eyeletted end-pieces.

The refreshing of this thread is a timely opportunity for me to issue a public thank you for another member's generosity.

Following my original post, entirely unsolicited, Charlie Fitton generously offered to post me a Cdn Yoke Strap to complete my Utility Pouch pair. Your gesture is thoroughly appreciated and gratefully accepted.

kajn65 · #12 11-02-10, 07:51

Hello!

My name is Keyan Noble and I'm a new member to this forum.

Good information on the Bren Gun (Utility) Pouches; aka the Bren Gunn Bra.

kajn65 · #13 11-02-10, 16:17

Hi!

I recently purchased 2 of these Rear Bren Gun (Utility) Pouches from a local tool/hardware store, Princess Auto (www.princessauto.com), p/n 8305303; thinking that they were Basic Pouchees.

I paid $9.99 each plus the 13% Nova Scotia Provincial Sales, which came to a total of $22.58 Canadian for the pair.

They are in mint, new, factory-unissued condition (no stains or fadding); tan in color; C-Broad Arrow marked; Manufacturerstamped Z.L.&T.Ltd. (Zephyr Looms & Textiles Limited); 1940 War Dated; have brass snap closure and strap attaching hardware (no oxidization or corrosion); and are inked stamped "REAR" on the center of their backs.

It is my understanding that the soldiers who used the Utility Pouches as a set (Rear Pouch, Front Pouch with Waiste Belt permanently sewn on the bottom of its back, and the Yoke Strap) in their respective units, commonly referred to them as the Bren Gun Bra. My Senior NCO of my Re-Enactment Unit, Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit (We're on Kijiji and Facebook.), advised me that they had a set of these in his last Re-Enactment Unit in northern British Columbia.

Would anyone be able to tell me where I can get my hands on a Yoke Strap; and, if possible, the Waiste Strap in the same condtions as my 2 Rear Utility Pouches mentioned above?

Ideally, I would like to use my to rear pouches to make up my Bren Gun Bra Set. Is this possible? If not, where can I get my hands on 2 Font Pouches with attached Waiste Belt and 2 Yoke Straps (in same condtion as my Rear Pouches stated above)?

Your assitance in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and keep up the good work on this site!

Rgs...Pte. Keyan Noble
Rifleman, Dutch Resistance Fighter & Unit Weapons NCO
Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit

kajn65 · #14 11-02-10, 16:34

Hi!

Enclosed below is the product and vendor information.

Princess Auto-Winnipeg Mail Order Office
P.O. Box 1005
Winnipeg, MB
Canada
R3C 2W7
Phone Toll Free: 1-800-665-8685
Fax Toll Free: 1-800-265-4212
Shop Online: www.princessauto.com

Note: Princess Auto has stores all across Canada. See their Online Catalogue for their contact information.

The Rear Utility Pouches were purchased in the Surplus Section of thier store here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada; and may not be listed in their Online Catalogue. These pouches are listed as: Pouch, p/n 8305302.

I hope this information is useful to any of those who are interested.

Rgs...

Pte. Keyan Noble
Rifleman, Dutch Resistance Fighter & Unit Weapons NCO
Maritimes World War 2 Re-Enactment Unit

Jordan Baker · #15 11-02-10, 16:49

I posted in another thread that I have the yokes for $2 each plus shipping. Just send me a PM with your details and I'll get them out to you.

Ed Storey · #16 12-02-10, 04:59

These pouches are called UTILITY POUCHES, they are NOT called Bren Pouches NOR are should they ever be called a 'Bren Gun Bra'. These pouches were designed to carry a variety of SAA, Ammunition, Magazines and even a Water Bottle. The set consists of a Front and Rear Pouch with a Yoke. This is what the set looks like.

The Utility Pouches were designed to carry any of these items.