Leopard 1 Driver Training Cabs in Canada

[Ed Storey]

This reaffirms Gord's figure of six Driver Training Cabins way back in post #5 so what is really needed now is a document which confirms this number.

[strat1]

July 1978 ,9 Leopard C1’s issued to Royal Canadian Armoured School. They were divided between Gunnery and Driving and Maintenance squadrons. The turrets were taken off, placed on turret stands, the hulls were fitted with an Instructors cabin for driving training.

More might have been purchased, but no records show this, or the number of 37 cabins. To convert a gun tank to driver instructor was a plug and play affair with quick disconnects.

23 Leo 1 hulls were sold off, all were to be de-milled with armour sections taken out of upper/lower front hull areas. a few have made it back to Canada , the Ontario Regiment Museum bought 2 which were movie props, the vismod movie turrets have been taken off, and vismod C1 looking turrets added, but they used the CFB Borden German Leo 1A4 for measurements to build the new turrets, so they are actually 1A4's, not our 1A3 turret versions.

Cheers

Anthony

[Ed Storey]

So this leads back to why in 1992 was DND reporting that it had 37 Driver Training C1 tanks?

[James P]

Hi Strat1 I did not see that odd shaped home made turret in Oshawa in June. They mocked up a couple very, very, nice looking C1 turrets.

[Ed Storey]

Where the turret stands the Turret Training Leopard C1? If so, the Data Summary C-11-220-000/MA-000 from 1984 lists a quantity of 5.

[jdmcm]

I think the picture on the right Anthony posted, was bought by a Canadian collector, the now defunct Georgina Keswick Military Museum, memory strikes me he also had a Leo with the drivers cab intact, and that odd turret was built for the movie "Jumper" which was partly filmed in Ontario.

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NOTE: Just heard from Ian Johns, he has corrected my post in which I called the Georgina Keswick Military Museum "defunct" He assures me it is alive and well, My apology to Ian and the museum

[James P]

To funny, the bottom half of that odd ball "turret" uses the bottom of the driver cab, I wonder if the tank when it left CF service came fully set up as a cab tank and driveable from the cab or the museum cobbled the cab on a running hull ? Then made the cab into a weird turret, interesting. I think the Oshawa museum has five Leopards two or three ex-Belgium, a couple Canadian and will let those with greater insight add comment.

[Malcolm Towrie]

To the original poster, Mike Cecil,
Mike, we bought two Leopard trainers and "converted" them back to turreted tanks. If you want, we still have the training turrets you can take a look at when you visit in November. The hulls are incredibly roomy because of all the stuff that was stripped out.
Malcolm

[45jim]

I was in D&M squadron in Gagetown in 1985 prior to posting to Calgary. We had four driver trainers with cabs. There were no spare driver cabs about and we were told that there were no driver cabs in Europe. We also had the driver position cut-aways for training drivers with warning light immediate actions.

Gunnery squadron had the four turrets (from those tanks) mounted on stands on the indoor miniature range. The CFR was painted on the hulls and turrets of those tanks. Supposedly, when a tank was to go for a rebuild it had to take its turret with it.

The modifications for the driver cab installation were accelerator linkage, steering linkage, transmission shift linkage, brake linkage and lighting interface. The tank could be driven from the driver instructors position and he had mechanical advantage over the driver so he could take over

[Lance Wiebe]

I may be able to add some information.
I was the Leopard Gunnery WO in Gagetown in the early 90's, and was part of the Leopard Thermal Upgrade Project, that resulted in the C2.

There were indeed a total of 5 driving cabs bought, as previously stated.

The IMR in K19 had 6 turret stands. 4 of the turrets came from the D&M tanks, while the remaining 2 were part of a buy of 4 turrets we bought over and above the 114 C1's. Two were used in Borden, and two in Gagetown.

Side story, one thing that always bothered me about the D&M tanks was that when they went to rebuild at 10,000 KM, I had to take one of my IMR turrets, that had never fired anything more than a laser, and send it to rebuild as well. Meanwhile, my gun tanks had fired 10's of thousands of main gun rounds, the turrets were totally worn out, but couldn't go to rebuild because the hulls only had 3 or 4 thousand KM on them.

There were two types of turret stands, one type used in the IMR, and the other type used by RCEME to plunk a turret when it was removed from a tank for whatever reason.

We bought 113 Leopard 1A5 turrets to convert our tanks to C2. We also bought 24 hulls to replace the hulls that were worn too thin and were starting to buckle.

Shortly after the project, the decision came that tanks were dead, and everyone started clammering for targets, for monuments, or whatever.

And shortly after that, came the new decision that tanks were not dead, and we needed them after all. Only 66 tanks were left......

There's still a bunch of C2's sitting in Gagetown, waiting for a new life, or the scrapyard.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe

There were indeed a total of 5 driving cabs bought, as previously stated.

Thanks for confirming this.

Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe

...while the remaining 2 were part of a buy of 4 turrets we bought over and above the 114 C1's. Two were used in Borden, and two in Gagetown.

I've never heard this before. Great piece of info.

Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe

...the decision came that tanks were dead, and everyone started clammering for targets, for monuments, or whatever.

And shortly after that, came the new decision that tanks were not dead, and we needed them after all. Only 66 tanks were left...

I don't think anyone who's ever worked in or for a bureaucracy, particularly the CF, would be surprised at a story like this.

Keep the reminisces coming.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe

We bought 113 Leopard 1A5 turrets to convert our tanks to C2. We also bought 24 hulls to replace the hulls that were worn too thin and were starting to buckle.

Lance, I'm curious, what causes hulls to get so thin they start to buckle?
Malcolm

[Ian Johns]

I know the old owner of the one on the right and if I remember correctly I remember seeing 2 or 3 training cabs in his yard. I'll check the next time I'm there.

Originally Posted by strat1

July 1978 ,9 Leopard C1’s issued to Royal Canadian Armoured School. They were divided between Gunnery and Driving and Maintenance squadrons. The turrets were taken off, placed on turret stands, the hulls were fitted with an Instructors cabin for driving training.

More might have been purchased, but no records show this, or the number of 37 cabins. To convert a gun tank to driver instructor was a plug and play affair with quick disconnects.

23 Leo 1 hulls were sold off, all were to be de-milled with armour sections taken out of upper/lower front hull areas. a few have made it back to Canada , the Ontario Regiment Museum bought 2 which were movie props, the vismod movie turrets have been taken off, and vismod C1 looking turrets added, but they used the CFB Borden German Leo 1A4 for measurements to build the new turrets, so they are actually 1A4's, not our 1A3 turret versions.

Cheers

Anthony

[BradB]

Found this on F-Book today - not sure how pertinent it is, but it is a Training Cab Leo!

Sorry - in detail, group photo from a 1981 Advanced Driver and Maintenance Course in Gagetown.

Brad

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by BradB

...group photo from a 1981 Advanced Driver and Maintenance Course in Gagetown.

Brad,

Why so many infantrymen on an advanced driver and maintenance course?

Cheers,
Dan.

[James P]

The attached Infantry types would do the "common" portion of the course of wheels and tracks but not the tank unless they where seconded to the school. There was even a Engineer teaching D&M (as they have the Leo bridge layer), the idea was the Armour school being the self touted centre of excellence that instructors going through there would rise the level of D&M instruction for outside units................I am hardly convinced it ever rose to that ideal.