War Relics of India

Hanno Spoelstra · #1 19-10-05, 14:20

Amazing stuff to be found in India!

http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/relics/

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #2 19-10-05, 18:22

This was described as a Humber, but is a Canadian Fox. How did it come to be in India?????

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #3 19-10-05, 18:28

And look at that brass Bren post socket. It has no box for the Bren loader on the back and racks for the 'desert' water cans. I bet it is within a few numbers of mine and the one from the auction last September.

centurion · #4 19-10-05, 18:34

In the days when Bombay was called Bombay there used to be a Sherman gate guardian at the Indian Navy's base in that city. The turret had been removed and replaced with a substantial cast fixed shield with what from my memory looked like a naval gun. I took a photo and still have it (somewhere). I'll have a rummage tonight.

Neil Ashley · #5 19-10-05, 18:39

Regarding the Fox question, there are some well known photographs of British Forces using Foxes in India immeadiately prior to independence.

Presumably they were left behind when the British Army withdrew.

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 19-10-05, 18:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
This was described as a Humber, but is a Canadian Fox. How did it come to be in India?????

I wondered how long it would take you to spot it, being well camouflaged as a "Damlier Armoured Car"

Seems the rumour you mentioned in Fox in East Africa? is substantiated!

H.

centurion · #7 20-10-05, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Regarding the Fox question, there are some well known photographs of British Forces using Foxes in India immeadiately prior to independence.

Presumably they were left behind when the British Army withdrew.

I beleve the Foxs equiped units of His Imperial Majesty's Indian Army which of course became the Indian Army and the Pakistani Army on independence and partition. So they wouldn't have been "left behind by the British Army" never having belonged to this in the first place. The old army of the Raj were great users of armoured cars from WW1 onwards, especially in the North West Frontier area, as these allowed best use of relatively limited man power in War time when the bulk of the army were overseas Its possible that some might have ended up in Pakistan as well as India.

Neil Ashley · #8 20-10-05, 16:59

Centurion

From memory the picture reference I was thinking of came from David Fletchers book the 'Universal Tank' and credits the Fox as belonging to a British Unit.

That was the reason for my comments.

The vehicles wouild also have been purchased under British Contracts and transfered to India as required.

centurion · #9 21-10-05, 17:30

I've found the photo of the moded Sherman I mentioned earlier.

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 21-10-05, 18:02

Quote:

Originally posted by centurion
I've found the photo of the moded Sherman I mentioned earlier.

Thanks!

This an Sherman-based M32B1 Tank Recovery Vehicle, stripped of all recovery gear (incl. boom), and fitted with a gun barrel to make it look like a regular tank.

H.

Neil Ashley · #11 21-10-05, 18:26

Having had the opportunity to check further, 'Tankette' magazine number 25/5 claims that the last British use of Fox Armoured Cars were those of the 7th Royal Tank Regiment based in Lahore during the partition crisis of 1947.

I have seen several pictures of Indian Recce Regiments in Italy using MkIV Humbers but the Foxes remain elusive.

I note that Dafadar (Sgt.) Badan Singh of the 16th Indian Light Cavalry Regiment was awarded a Military Medal in Burma for knocking out a Japanese Chi-Ha Tank with his Humber MKIV Armoured Car.

centurion · #12 21-10-05, 18:51

I have found the following reference

"The Canadian, British and Indian Armies all used Foxes operationally although it was never particularly popular with it's crews. Canadian Foxes were relegated to the training role in mid 1943. India kept her Foxes in service into the early 1950s."
http://users.bigpond.net.au/blitz_trucks/CANCARS.html

Digging around I found references in a history of Canadian HQ to the Canadian forces during WW2 relinquishing orders for Lynx armoured cars to allow them to go to India in response to a request from Britain. Humbers are also mentioned - one wonders if some Foxes replaced these latter, especially as it seems that some units appear to have been replacing theirs with other vehicles about this time.

Given that Lahore is in Pakistan (well within) I suspect that the Fox found in India may not have come from 7th Royal Tank Regiment.

The mechanisation of Indian Cavalry regiments from 1939 onwards was predicated on the assumption that Indian mechanised units would increasingly replace British ones in India. By 1947 there should have been relatively few British armoured car units in India, however the problems (understatement) of partition may have caused some rethink.

Does anybody know what is the formation to which badge on the Fox in the photo in this thread belongs?

centurion · #13 31-10-05, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
This was described as a Humber, but is a Canadian Fox. How did it come to be in India?????

I've identified the Fox in the picture. It belongs to the NCC (National Cadet Corps) Directorate, Secunderabad and is in pocession of this body's 1 (Andhra) Armoured Squadron who, by captions on some Indian sites, seem to think that it is a Humber (although one picture labels it as a Daimler). This may explain why the history of the Fox in India is clouded - there may be no distinction between the Fox and the Humber in some accounts and records.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #14 01-11-05, 01:01

Is there any indication what they use this Fox for? It looks to be on all four tires and not on a concrete pad. Does it run?

How could someone contact them for possible information on details?

centurion · #15 01-11-05, 11:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Is there any indication what they use this Fox for? It looks to be on all four tires and not on a concrete pad. Does it run?

How could someone contact them for possible information on details?

Its now a gate guardian and apparrently does not run. They also have two Staghounds state unknown. I'm trying to find a way to contact. Although the NCC has a web site it shows no e mail address. Its effectively an association of university and college cadet corps. In time of war (eg 1971) they have formed a second line defence and therefore own some effective (if older) hardware. I would suspect that at some time the armour was handed down from an Indian Army unit One possibility would be the President's Guard who were once equiped with a mixture of Staghounds and Humbers (Foxes?).
I think there may be an indirect route via the college to which the 1 (Andhra) Armoured Squadron is linked. I'll report if I find anything.

Hanno Spoelstra · #16 02-04-09, 22:17

Bruce,

For your enjoyment: another picture of a Fox in India!

Source: http://picasaweb.google.com/vibhu.ri...garTankMuseum#

Regards,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 02-02-10, 11:30

New URL for the site: http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php

Two Ford Lynx at BSF Museum, Tekanpur:

Keith Webb · #18 02-02-10, 18:02

Looks like whoever designed that building had been onto the ganga or whacky backy for a LONG time.