Sand channel, PSP, Marsden matting

[sapper740]

Here's a timely new thread what with the buzz Mike and Graeme created over the "Looking for Marsden Matting" thread. I have a picture that could qualify for the "Under new Management" thread also. It's a picture of a captured Marmon-Harrington armoured car in Africa with some Marsden Matting mounted on the side.

[cletrac (RIP)]

;These are mostly New Zealand pix.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Some more.

[Mike Timoshyk]

Great shots Dave,

I particularly like the one where they are actually using it.....the matting of course...

cheers

Mike in Windsor

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's some more pix I dug up. The PSP was also known as sand channels. They also used canvas sand mats and rolls of sticks as you can see in some of these pix.

[cletrac (RIP)]

And some more. The captured F8 has quite a bit of sand matting over the bumper.

[David DeWeese]

Hi,
The photos of the matting shown are of an entirely different design than the PSP aircraft landing mat or Marston mat I'm used to seeing here in the US. Are these a Commonwealth style of aircraft landing mat, or a purpose-built item made for unsticking vehicles in sand?
Thanks, David

[cletrac (RIP)]

I doubt if they made any sand channels specifically for the job when they had the airfield stuff. In some of the pix if you look close you can see the links along the edges to hook the planking together. You have to remember that the US didn't get to North Africa until the action there was almost over so the planking would be from a Commonwealth source. The US matting was produced mainly for the Pacific theater. The high manganese content that kept it from rusting wouldn't have been necessary in the Sahara.
The US planks have the pierced holes in rows of three while a lot of this African stuff has them arranged like the 5 on dice. There's a few other patterns there too.
Having said all this, I can't imagine anyone noticing the difference if you hung a US piece on the side of your CMP. Any of it is close enough in my estimation.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David DeWeese

The photos of the matting shown are of an entirely different design than the PSP aircraft landing mat or Marston mat I'm used to seeing here in the US. Are these a Commonwealth style of aircraft landing mat, or a purpose-built item made for unsticking vehicles in sand?

Yes, most if not all photos in this thread show steel sand channels. They are steel U-section. Designed and used specifically for crossing soft sand patches with vehicles. There also were canvas sand mats, designed and used for the same purpose. These are not Engineers equipment, but vehicle kit.

Sand channels and sand mats have a totally different purpose from the American PSP / Marsden matting (of which the British equivalent was SMT or Square Mesh Track).

HTH,
Hanno

[Jeff Gordon]

This is the US style.
Everywhere you go in the Pacific you will find cattle yards, fences, gates, trailers, you name it, made out of the stuff.
I would like to know how many hundreds of tons of the stuff was made during the war. No wonder there was a metal shortage.
They still use it today but a slightly different profile and I think it is Aluminium now?
Cheers
Jeff
P.S check out the Cab 12!

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gordon

You would have to be good to identify its make and model.
I am guessing an F60L.
Cheers
Jeff
Is this a sh*t load of PSP matting or what!

Hi Jeff

You must have been digging back through old MLU threads, when I saw the picture I thought that looks familiar, pulled out the book the picture came from and it is the picture I posted or have you found a copy of the books as well. It comes out of a US Army Corps of Engineering History and shows various Canadian/Austrailian vehicles, some equipment being used by US troops in reverse Leand Lease. Thanks for reminding me of that book though as now I have a better scanner I'll have to go through and scan more of the pictures in the book and post them. The books are interesting as they large format set of eight volumes covering Corps of Engineers in support of Allied forces in South West Pacific. You history buffs might want to keep an eye out for the set or even individual volumes.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gordon

This is the US style.
Everywhere you go in the Pacific you will find cattle yards, fences, gates, trailers, you name it, made out of the stuff.
I would like to know how many hundreds of tons of the stuff was made during the war. No wonder there was a metal shortage.
They still use it today but a slightly different profile and I think it is Aluminium now?
Cheers
Jeff
P.S check out the Cab 12!

During the war the United States made 2,000,000 tons of the stuff. Yes, that's not a typo, as Dr. Evil would say, " Two Meeelliion tons!" They also made PAP (Perforated Aluminum Planking) as well as PSP (perforated Steel Planking) during the war. One will still see lots of PSP to this day as the high Manganese content in the steel alloy has helped preserve the planking.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Let's see; 2000000 tons at 100 pounds per 13 sq feet-----------------that works out to around 13000 acres! Wow!

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by sapper740

During the war the United States made 2,000,000 tons of the stuff..... One will still see lots of PSP to this day as the high Manganese content in the steel alloy has helped preserve the planking.

Any idea how many producer's made the stuff, and if it was only Wartime production? I'd imagine there'd be sufficient war surplus to get through the post-war years, or was there? The rust resistance is true enough, the lengths I have all clearly show the manufacturer's name, but no date:

[David DeWeese]

Hi,
Dug out a couple of different examples of PSP from my junkpile today to see if they had manufacturer's marks also. The short wide one has no markings, but the long one does. Has a government contract number, so I guess it is probably post-war. I always thought they had discontinued making the ones with the holes after jet aircraft were in use.
Thanks, David

[sapper740]

I finally found time to make the trip to Calumet, OK to pick up some PSP. Fortunately Capt. (ret'd) Dennis Boots (waving hello in the picture) of the Viet Nam Veterans Association Chapter 920, Denton, TX had to make a run to Oklahoma City to pick up some insulated cab covers for the unit's M35A2's so I tagged along and avoided a large gas bill. (By the way, anyone experiencing a breakdown during the Trans Continental convoy next month will get to know Dennis very well as he has taken on the responsibility of maintenance officer for the trip and will be driving his M151 as tail-end Charly with the maintenance trailer.) Calumet Industries has 80 acres of military surplus with items ranging from trucks, trailers, drop tanks, PSP, storage containers, truck parts, web gear etc. etc. As for PAP, they only had one length left as it is more popular than the PSP and it wasn't for sale.

CHIMO! Derek.

[Little Jo]

Hi All

I have been having a debate with some mates for a while now as too whether any WW2 LRDG Jeeps carried "Marsden Matting" on their vehicles. We are all sure we have seen photos of the matting cut down and attached to the side of the LRDG Jeep.

I have spent hours on looking at LRDG sites checking equipment and photos of LRDG vehicles and only found Marsden Matting attached to the side of their trucks, but I could not find any LRDG Jeeps with cut down matting carried on their Jeep. We are sure we have seen photos somewhere but we cannot remember where. I am sure that matting would have been of benefit for any vehicle working in desert country.

Can any MLU member out there assist in solving our debate or if they have seen Marsden Matting carried on any WW2 Western Desert Jeeps.

Cheers

Tony

[Lang]

Tony,

That is not Marsden Matting in your photo but looks like a type of sand mat that I have seen photos of (will look) on various British vehicles.

Click on this to see Marsden Matting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsden_Matting


Lang

[Lang]

Here is a photo of an Australian Chev with those sand mats.

[lynx42]

Tony,

The channel on the side of the Bedford MW you show is known as "Sand Channel". It was invented by the LRDG founder, Brigadier Ralph Bagnold way back in the 1920's to assist his exploration of the African Deserts. It is completely different to Marston Matting. It cannot be joined together and has formed sides for stiffness. This was carries by mose vehicles in the North African Campaign. Even my 1940 Chev Staff car carried some on the roof. There were/are still marks from the roofrack and dents above the rear window where they were thrown up to the roof rack.

You will see plenty of photos of vehicles with the Sand Channel being carried.

Regards Rick.

[Lang]

Some good LRDG photos of mats here.

http://lrdg.hegewisch.net/Chevy_wb.html

Lang

[lynx42]

Lang, I've seen that photo before. It is amazing that you posted it whilst I was writing my post.

Is there anyone with the technology to read the ARN painted on the bonnet on the ground?

I can only make out the "AIF ####.
Rick.

[Lang]

Here is a great photo of the British mats. You can also see the roll-out type mat on the front guard. These were canvas with wood stays, easy to handle but I believe easily broken.

As a sideline - I found photos of current SAS in Iraq and Afghanistan and they do use marsden matting BUT it is the alloy type. Same as WW2 pattern but about 2/3 the weight

[Lang]

Just had a good look at that mat photo. Seems style overcame practicality. The "tags" bolted to the bottom of the mat are wonderful for holding it in the rack. I bet they were the first things to be taken off.

Designers in UK probably thought the tags would just sink into the sand and also stop the mats being shot backwards by the huge power of the British army vehicle. Unfortunately I think the people using them found the tags made them a pain in the a... to slide under the wheels and of course the first rock they rested on would bend the tags and make them impossible to put back in the rack.

Lang

[Lang]

Tony,

To finally answer your question. I have looked at over 100 photos of LRDG jeeps and about 40 photos of WW2 SAS jeeps and NONE carry marsden matting or any type of sand channel, despite what re-enactors put on their vehicles.

It makes sense in that the jeeps always travelled with trucks if they needed them. More to the point, they were so hopelessly overloaded that any extraneous gear could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. They also had plenty of fit young blokes to push them through soft stuff and with those skinny tyres and big weights I reckon there was a lot of pushing going on.

The other point is the desert is not made of sand and the vast majority is stony flat ground capable of carrying 2WD vehicles eg the bulk of LRDG vehicles were only 2WD.

Never say never but if you put marsden matting on your replica LRDG/SAS jeep you are gilding the lilly.

Lang

[Little Jo]

Hi Rick and Lang

Thanks again for your input. I am now aware of the difference between the types of matting the LRDG used and can see I wrongly named it as Marsden Matting used by the LRDG. I can clearly see the difference between them. Your information clears up part of the debate and I can see the reasoning that Jeeps travelled with trucks would use the trucks matts if stuck. But I am still racking my brain as to where I saw the picture of the LRDG Jeep carrying the sand matting.

Cheers

Tony

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

Last night I stirred up the old the old grey matter and finally remembered where I had seen the photo of a section of Marsden Matting on an LRDG Jeep as part of their kit. It was not a LRDG photo, but in a movie called "Play Dirty". starring Michael Caine as a stiff upper lip British Army Captain sent on an LRDG mission behind German lines.

I thought it a good movie showing lots of LRDG trucks and Jeeps scenes. That now clears up where I had seen the Marsden Matting on a Jeep, So I am wrong to assume that officially it was part of the LRDG Jeep Kit. I think "Lang" put it correctly when he said one could be accused of "Gilding the Lily" when setting up their own restoration kit.

Cheers

Tony

[David DeWeese]

Hi,
I lost interest in that movie when I saw the Dodge M-37's they had rigged up to look like Mercedes military trucks. I guess they had to use something....
Being in this hobby has ruined many a war movie for me, if you know what I mean....
David

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by David DeWeese

Hi,
I lost interest in that movie when I saw the Dodge M-37's they had rigged up to look like Mercedes military trucks. I guess they had to use something....
Being in this hobby has ruined many a war movie for me, if you know what I mean....
David

David

I know exactly what you mean. I too since becoming involved with WW2 Jeep restorations am constantly driving the family nuts when I point out wrong era vehicles used in movies. I did not look to close at the mock up mercedes.

Cheers

Tony

[warren brown]

Hi Little Jo - having a jeep in SAS config, I've spent a lot of time studying the same question. There are photos of good SAS/LRDG 'restorations' - with the sand channels fitted squarely across the two spare wheels on the back - screwed on with big sort of wing-nuts. I don't know whether this is ridgey-didge (the channels fitted there that is), but it looks neat.