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  #1  
Old 29-06-05, 19:40
rob love rob love is offline
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Default Leopard tanks for tender in Canada

I'm going to pass on these myself, but it appears crown assets is selling off a half dozen or so Canadian leopards, less turrets. Some are located in Quebec, and some in Alberta. Heres your chance to own a real crowd pleaser.

http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/search/listitem-e.cfm



When Canada bought the leopards back in 78, we paid around $1 million each, but when we bought a bunch for spare parts from the Germans about 4 years ago, the hulls were retained in lieu of the $10,000 deposit, so bid accordingly.



Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-001
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85065
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-002
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85067
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-003
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85073
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-004
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85156
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-005
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85084
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-006
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85118
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB

Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-007
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85125
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of
Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB
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  #2  
Old 30-06-05, 04:58
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sapper740 sapper740 is offline
Derek Heuring
 
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Default Re: Leopard tanks for tender in Canada

Quote:
Originally posted by rob love
When Canada bought the leopards back in 78, we paid around $1 million each, but when we bought a bunch for spare parts from the Germans about 4 years ago, the hulls were retained in lieu of the $10,000 deposit, so bid accordingly.
I was told by a R.C.D. sargeant that when Germany went to the Leopard II they offered us free many of the old Leopard I's that they had in surplus. We turned down the offer as we didn't have the facilities, maintenance personnel, or crew to operate the additional tanks. So now we're paying for the same tanks a few years later.
I'm looking at the paint on the tanks in the images from Crown Assets. They look a lot greener than I remember. Last Leopard I saw was at Armed Forces Day in C.F.B. Borden in '97 or '98. It was painted a very dark green and had a black maple leaf outlined in white on the sides of the turret. Maybe Zipperhead can shed some light on different colours and markings.
As an aside...any of you armour fans may be interested in some of the many pics I took while visiting the Israeli Armoured Corps museum near Jerusalem. This museum is one of the largest and most comprehensive collections in the world. It's astounding the number of Sherman variants the Israeli's created to meet their needs. I also have several pics of the Meirkava Mks I, II, and III. The pics are all in 35mm prints, but I can have them scanned if anyone is interested.
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  #3  
Old 03-07-05, 03:12
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Hi (Am I the Zip of which you speak?)

I can't be sure (would have to look into CFR #'s) but from the photos they appear to be Leo C2. That would mean they're tired old C1 hulls re-furbed and had C2 turrets on them. Biggest Leo problem was the six or so (Hmmmmmm) that had their hull bottoms worn through around the engine mounts. These (there were two for sure from us) were taken away as unsafe. Step on the gas and wrench the motor off it's mounts!!

Paint-wise; they were all repainted as part of the C2 issue. A lighter green. Some at the units may have been in the old greens and brown but I can't recall any here. I could be wrong as I have no C2 time. Bit more of a Recce guy.

I'd look hard ata parts source before buying a Leo to maintain. Great stump puller, I'll bet!! Too bad those turrets aren't still at the old airfield up here .

regards
D

Last edited by Darrell Zinck; 03-07-05 at 03:17.
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  #4  
Old 03-07-05, 14:46
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sapper740 sapper740 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
Hi (Am I the Zip of which you speak?)
You are the Zip of which I speak. Got a question for you.....are we going to replace the Leopard with a new MBT or are MBT's going the way of the dinosaur? It seems every military, with the exception of maybe the Israelis are acquiring more and more fast, wheeled AFV's instead of main battle tanks. Another question, I know with Canada's small military budget that the services have to take turns having their outdated equipment replaced. The Air Force bought CF-118's in the '80s, then the Navy got their new C.P.F.'s and C.P.V.'s in the '90s and now the Air Force is entering into a contract for the new J.S.F. Did the Army miss out or were the wheeled AFV's the Army received in the mid '90S considered their upgrade? If so, I think the Army got shorted. One more question....could you explain to an armour-challenged Engineer the differences between Coyotes, Bisons, and all the other wheeled AFVs? Thanks1 Cheemo!
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  #5  
Old 05-07-05, 09:14
alleramilitaria's Avatar
alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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the wheeled vehicles are nice but too many people are hopping on the band waggon way too soon and getting burned. the LAVs are getting just as expensive to operate as the tracks and the tires are cheaper (a little) they dont last nearly as long as tracks in combat. vehicles (LAVs or MBTs) are not priced according to the real cost of the vehicle, but by how much the DOD or MOD has to spend on that system. a modern army needs a mix of combat forces. LAVs may be easy to transport (sometimes) but cost more in the terms of crewmans lives. yes a M-1A1 for about 3-5 million each is pricy compared to a 2-3 million dollar LAV. but you cant take out a M-1 with a $20 RPG, a LAV would be just a smoking hole in the ground. in todays world one dead american or canadian soldier on CNN or CBC being dragged through the streets by his ankles could sap the countrys moral and cause it to loose its will to fight and win. use light forces LAVs when needed but have the big modern armor waiting for the QRF role. lets face it there are some things you need a big ugly MBT for. nothing else will do.
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  #6  
Old 05-07-05, 09:47
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by alleramilitaria
LAVs may be easy to transport (sometimes) but cost more in the terms of crewmans lives. yes a M-1A1 for about 3-5 million each is pricy compared to a 2-3 million dollar LAV. but you cant take out a M-1 with a $20 RPG, a LAV would be just a smoking hole in the ground. in todays world one dead american or canadian soldier on CNN or CBC being dragged through the streets by his ankles could sap the countrys moral and cause it to loose its will to fight and win.
The Air Force has always made the case it is cheaper to sacrifice an aircraft over a pilot, because it takes longer to train a pilot than to build an aircraft (would the real cost of his training also be more expensive than an aircraft?). The real issue is that aircraft are 2 to 3 times more complicated - and therefore more expensive - because there's a pilot on board! I tell you, the pimply playstation nerds are the next generation fighter jocks.
The same goes for space programs: half of the budget is spent on research on how to sustain life in space. But there is no need to send a human being into space. Putting a man on the moon was a matter of prestige, we'd better concentrate on sending robots into space from now on.
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now

H.
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  #7  
Old 05-07-05, 14:27
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Hi Derek

Sorry for the late reply. If you mean in service Cdn LAVs then the best place to compare of Wheeled AFV's is here :http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-0vehicles.htm

-AVGP was first. 6-wheeler. titles Husky (ARVL) w/ pintle MG, Grizzly (APC)w/ one-man turret w/ .50in and 7.62mm MGs, and Cougar (Gnry Trainer) with Brit Scorpion Turret.

-Bison was next. 8-wheeler. Bison LAV by title. Turned into a CP, Amb and Cgt Eng veh. All w/ 7.62mm MG on pintle mt. Initially intended for the reserve as a dvr trging veh but turned into a versatile multi-role LAV. Like Stuart said, the start of it all.

-Coyote was next. 8-wheeler with 2-man turret. 25mm chain gun and x2 MGs, MBGDs, Laser wng receiver, thermal etc etc etc. Best Surv kit in the world. Thermal Cam, Day Cam, Radar, and a Laser. Best tactics and trg to go along with it too. We did sell them to US, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc but not with the surv kit. They use them as cramped APCs or Scout vehs.

-LAVIII is the latest. She has no official title yet. "Kodiak" is a bogus name so far. 8-wheeler. Newer, bigger hull. Cat engined (all before were GM Diesels). Ramp for the dirties in the back. Carries 8, I think. Same turret as the Coyote.

The Leopard is not to be replaced by the Mobile Gun System or MGS. It's a small tank gun on a beefed-up LAV chassis. MGS will be a "Counter-Recce" vehicle. All Leos are withdrawn from the Regts except them filthy Strats out west and are being pooled at Wainwright till their life expires around 2010. The Infantry will have to then get the intimate heavy support from a co-alition partner from now on. Sorry ground-pounders. Try trg with a non-existent force here in Canada. We'll see. Like Dave said; A LAV Ain't a Tank no matter how big of a gun you put on it. It lacks the Armour to withstand that initial hit and then destroy the irritant. According to the words that came out of the US Commanders in the inial stages of the invasion of Iraq, the US forces learned not to lead with Scout Humvees or LAVs pretty darn quick.

I don't care as I'm Armd Recce and so is my whole Regt. Now all we need is more Coyotes!! Easy, huh. Take the vehicle away and change the units role. Wow, this Running the Country-shit is easy!!

Long story short is that shortly after I retire, Canada will have this:

as their "Heavy"!!:

regards
D
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  #8  
Old 05-07-05, 17:16
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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zink, dont look to have the LAV with the 105mm gun. here are the problems that cant be overcome. too tall to transport (C-130), cant stabalize the gun. it allmost flips over when you fire the darn thing, the auto loader like all auto loaders is proan to jamming, the ammo is with the crew. and the 105 is about as effective as throwing dirty looks at the new line of MBTs (M-1A1, BLACK EAGLE, TYPE 99?, LECLEARK, LEOPARD II, CHALANGER II, ETC.) and if you are looking for the US military for the heavy stuff (just like NZ no combat aircraft at all) , please kindly ask your elected leaders to stop telling us how evile we are down here. other than that i guess we sill be there with the C-17s, AH-64s, ch47s, M-1A2, and the GPS system as always. yea go UN! not.

ok im off my soapbox now
dave
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  #9  
Old 06-07-05, 01:18
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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demorow

I'll take your rant under advisement. Thanks.

Points to note. We can make it fit into a CC-130, LAV II flipped, LAV III didn't, and the Black Eagle is a joke. Supposedly there are ammo types for this LAV/Gun thing that can give a modern MBT a go. Would I try it? No. Maybe flank or up the ass shot but a MGS against an Abrams? Get real. Hell I wouldn't take a MGS up against t T62!! Personally, I'd take a LeoIIA6 over an M1A2 in a heartbeat but what do I know.

With regard to you and all your toys; ya know, being your neighbor doesn't make us exactly like you. Sure, there's alot of flow-over in the Sport, Media, and Entertainment industry but we're still our own people. I believe there are not quite 35 million of us compared to your.....what? .........eleven times that? Of course you have lottsa kit. You are a world leader after all. Keep acting like one. Youse guys think we're plannin' to invade or somethin'?

When your faceless masses and politicians stop talking trash to us, we'll happily comply. You are aware of the full extent of our troubles, aren't you? For example, we're still having a hard time getting the US to retract the statement that the 9/11 terrorists entered your country from ours. Beef? Lumber? even our Water, for pity's sake!! Tut, tut my friend, look inward first. We aren't yours to do as you wish. Get it?

Finally the world would be a sad state if there were no UN. Strictly my opinion and open to criticism. I can't type that fast so don't expect big messages like this all the time.

Slipped off soapbox............banged toe......whimpering. Hey, it really really hurt!!

regards
D
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  #10  
Old 06-07-05, 01:31
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servicepub (RIP) servicepub (RIP) is offline
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Default Ironies

From the army that bought camouflage uniforms for soldiers in downtown Ottawa (Garrison Dress) while refusing to extend the SSF Cam jacket (or any camouflage) to soldiers in the field, comes the irony of having RCEME and Engineers on tracks (Beaver and Taurus variants of the Leopard) but puts the black beret guys on wheels. There's no life like it!!
(If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined.)
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  #11  
Old 06-07-05, 01:38
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by servicepub
.......(If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined.)
Amen to that.

regards
D
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  #12  
Old 06-07-05, 01:45
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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everyone is entitled to there opinion, and yes i respect yours dont agree with it but respect it.

ok point by point.

the leo II is a good system. but it is NOT battle proven, is a maintence nightmare, super expensive, and not made to fight outside of NATOs central front. i have worked with the german armor school at potlos germany and have had a chance to be in both vehicles. they are like a fine german watch, good but overcomplicated.

the AGS is a good system for ABN / ASSLT forces that dont have armor assigned to them now. but it is NOT a main MBT. i agree with you on that.

LAV IIIs with the 105 will not fit as is in a C-130. other versions such as the ADA version have the same problem. too tall for flight.

canada is its own country, i like it and make it a hobby of collecting canadian, british, and aussie gear. i respect your country, your history, and your military. i have served with 3 of your units and have had alot of fun times with you guys. what im saying is that we need to spread the wealth with everyone. as in afgahanistain (or how ever you spell it) the only way to get NATO heavy gear was to get the US to fly it in. no other military has the gear, nor do they think they need to. i have lived in europe for 15 years and have many european friends. but i constantly hear european, canadian, NZ, and other governments gutting there fighting forces and say the US will fill in the gap. i think the only government that is expanding is the brits with there 2 new suppercarriers, that should be a sight to see. but then again you have another western european country that has a grand total of 2 friggets. but only 1 crew. while in baghdad i loved to see and interact with forces of other countries. we all understood what was happening and why we are there.

if canada was involved in a war i would be one of the first to say i support you!!! and if i ever found out that US agencies were OPENLY going to canadian military posts to tell your soldiers to desert and run away i would do everything i could to stop it.

on the UN, please let me know of a single UN operation that has ever been compleated from start to finish (mission compleat) that has been a resounding long lasting sucess, that was not run by the USA?

logging, fishing, and other problems are to be worked out among are elected represinitives. we as military, prior military, and collectors should be above that and stick together for the hobby, history and the respect of the soldiers who once operated the vehicles in the hobby.

as i have said i respect your opinion.
and take it easy
and crack a smile man
dave

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44 MORRIS C8, M-3A1 SCOUT CAR
41 U/C, 42 U/C x 2, 44 U/C
42 6LB GUN
and the list keeps growing, and growing.... i need help LOL
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  #13  
Old 06-07-05, 01:50
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sapper740 sapper740 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by alleramilitaria
everyone is entitled to there opinion, and yes i respect yours dont agree with it but respect it.

ok point by point.

the leo II is a good system. but it is NOT battle proven, is a maintence nightmare, super expensive, and not made to fight outside of NATOs central front. i have worked with the german armor school at potlos germany and have had a chance to be in both vehicles. they are like a fine german watch, good but overcomplicated.

the AGS is a good system for ABN / ASSLT forces that dont have armor assigned to them now. but it is NOT a main MBT. i agree with you on that.

LAV IIIs with the 105 will not fit as is in a C-130. other versions such as the ADA version have the same problem. too tall for flight.

canada is its own country, i like it and make it a hobby of collecting canadian, british, and aussie gear. i respect your country, your history, and your military. i have served with 3 of your units and have had alot of fun times with you guys. what im saying is that we need to spread the wealth with everyone. as in afgahanistain (or how ever you spell it) the only way to get NATO heavy gear was to get the US to fly it in. no other military has the gear, nor do they think they need to. i have lived in europe for 15 years and have many european friends. but i constantly hear european, canadian, NZ, and other governments gutting there fighting forces and say the US will fill in the gap. i think the only government that is expanding is the brits with there 2 new suppercarriers, that should be a sight to see. but then again you have another western european country that has a grand total of 2 friggets. but only 1 crew. while in baghdad i loved to see and interact with forces of other countries. we all understood what was happening and why we are there.

if canada was involved in a war i would be one of the first to say i support you!!! and if i ever found out that US agencies were OPENLY going to canadian military posts to tell your soldiers to desert and run away i would do everything i could to stop it.

on the UN, please let me know of a single UN operation that has ever been compleated from start to finish (mission compleat) that has been a resounding long lasting sucess, that was not run by the USA?

logging, fishing, and other problems are to be worked out among are elected represinitives. we as military, prior military, and collectors should be above that and stick together for the hobby, history and the respect of the soldiers who once operated the vehicles in the hobby.

as i have said i respect your opinion.
and take it easy
and crack a smile man
dave


Dave, I love ya man, but there is one huge difference between Canadians and Americans.......Canadians know how to spell!
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  #14  
Old 06-07-05, 02:00
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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ow cheap shot

but i am cooking dinner at the same time
dave
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  #15  
Old 06-07-05, 02:25
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Hi

Please don't think I'm offended. I'm not. Merely inputing what I know and what I opine.

I don't know what you're doing wrong but our MGS will fit in a Herc. Also I do hate the vehicle and think it a shame we're losing our armour capability. I particularily hate the fact that we'll need a coalition "partner" to provide us with armour be it the US or any other country. You know as well as I do that national interests take precedence over co-operation internationally. We couldn't rely on a partner. Any partner.



I'm sure we would be better off in a LeoII. We're used to German tanks!!Being a small force, our tanking skills were very very good. Mind you now with them gone, our skill fade is going to be huge. I have some time in yours and theirs, albeit as just crew.

Well as much as I'd like to debate the value of the UN with you, I won't. I cannot show you a mission that was completed to your satisfaction even with US spt (which is minor in the whole average of UN missions). Show me a US military mission that was completed in a mission coplete satisfactory way, for that matter. GW1? Iran? Korea? Vietnam? Bosnia? Kosovo? Afghanistan? Iraq? You haven't managed that feat since you took on Spain at the beginning of the last century. Do not preach to me, please.

I know we should all stick together as collectors, ex-servicemen and servicemen but I am at a unique disadvantage compared to the first two types of people. If you're the second type, you'll know why.

I'm not glad you'd blindly support my country if we went to war either. I still don't support your reasons for being in Iraq but I made that decision myself after reviewing the facts even before you actually invaded. Nothing that has happened since then has changed my mind. I hope for the sake of your deployed soldiers(who I support and even know) that you can find a way out of where you needn't be in the first place. I am as ashamed of those that council desertion as you are but just as much so as your Recruiters trolling the High Schools for poor familys sons and daughters.

Again, not PO'd, just my humble opinions.


gotta put the kids in bed.

Later
D

Last edited by Darrell Zinck; 06-07-05 at 02:46.
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  #16  
Old 06-07-05, 02:44
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Maybe we should start this in the Mess??

regards
D
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  #17  
Old 06-07-05, 03:50
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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ok you have your own opinion about iraq, i might not be able to change that but i would like to know why you dont think we should have gone...

just wait a min and listen a min, i am not the news but i have been there and i can share my insite on the situation

1. the iraqi people for the most part (70%+) want us there and dont want to see a pull out

2. the iraqi military is standing up and fighting, we were getting more volinteres than we could have used. we even had a group want to join the US army.

3. sadam did have WMD, cant go into too much without breaking the law, but ...
VX and VG nerve found in and around baghdad, used againsed US forces 3 times in the past 2 years.
M-22 rockets banned by the UN, sadam had 200+ and counting.
30 aircraft converted to spraying aircraftdistroyed by the RAF.
1/2 of a nuclear bomb found under a iraqi tec rose bush.
tons of nerv and bio weapons missing, no records! none nada.

4. sadam was (UN report) killing 1000+ people a month in his prisions.

5. yes N. korea may have WMD, but they have never used them.

6. iraq had known links to terror groups. abu abbas was found living in a upscale area in baghdad.

for every PLO member that killed himself in isreal his survivers would recive $1000 USD.

7. durring the gulf war the republican guards were killing his own troops if they had a surender leafleat, a radio, or even a white t-shirt.

8. the comparison to hitler is dead on, even his special republican guard troops wore black cotton copies of WWII uniforms, the units were styled after the SS, the weapon of choice was the 98K with german bayonet. the guy was sick.

lets face it, no matter how you look at it sadam sas a bad guy and he had to go.

since then the power and water are flowing, people are voting, schools and hospitals are open and people are taking pride in there country.
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44 GPW, 43 MB, 42 trailer, 43 cckw
44 MORRIS C8, M-3A1 SCOUT CAR
41 U/C, 42 U/C x 2, 44 U/C
42 6LB GUN
and the list keeps growing, and growing.... i need help LOL
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  #18  
Old 06-07-05, 04:00
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servicepub (RIP) servicepub (RIP) is offline
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I think this thread has gone really off topic. Can we agree to disagree and drop it or move this to the Sgts Mess as a new thread?
PS. I'm not the moderator but I am very pleased that this discussion has not sunk to name calling, etc.. you are both gentlemen.
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  #19  
Old 06-07-05, 04:16
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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ok point taken.
im just sad a great tradition in the canadian army seems to have come to a end.

dave
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44 MORRIS C8, M-3A1 SCOUT CAR
41 U/C, 42 U/C x 2, 44 U/C
42 6LB GUN
and the list keeps growing, and growing.... i need help LOL
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  #20  
Old 06-07-05, 04:20
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Whoa guys. Let's not let this get out of hand, after all, we here are dealing with 60 year-old stuff, not today.

I will say two things; one, the loss of our Leos is criminal from my perspective, and yes, although not proven in open, unrestricted combat, they were a hell of a lot lighter than the Abrams, and could go places and do things the Abrams couldn't, especially given our peacekeeping/making mission. I agree with Darrell 100% that our losing this capability in favour of what amounts to wheeled APCs will set our armed forces back years, even if our damned gummint were to elect to rearm. It's just plain stupid. But the Leos have their place in the modern scheme of things, just as do the Abrams.

Second, I know, personally (as in beer-drinking buddies), numerous people over in Iraq right now, and more who have already been and come home. They will echo what Dave says. It ain't nice, but it's a new reality in this strange world of ours. Think what you wish about the politics, but I'll support the men on the pointy end every time. For as long as it takes. THEY are my men.

So keep it polite, you guys, and drink up, you're even...

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  #21  
Old 14-07-05, 04:45
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I came through Wainright today so stopped at the base to check these Leopards out. I was quite surprised that I drove all around the base without even having anyone even ask who I was. I went to the main office and they didn't have any idea what I was talking about but sent me to another building. Same results here so I got the soldier to check out the Crown Assets website and we found the contact person's name in maintenance so I went there and found him and had quite a chat as he showed me around. They just drove the three Leopards out the back door and tarped them over yesterday. I asked why these three and he said they're no different to any that they still use condition wise. He was complaining because they're leaving the power units in them and they always need power units. Still nobody asked my name.
Something entirely unrelated happened on the way home. I got in front of a bad hailstorm and was outrunning it when a tornado formed above me and pulled some stuff out of the back of my truck before I got to turn away from it.
All in all a very interesting day!! My 14 year old daughter agrees completely.
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  #22  
Old 15-07-05, 20:16
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Here's a photo of the three for sale at Wainwright
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mvc-132f.jpg  
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  #23  
Old 15-07-05, 21:04
Snowtractor Snowtractor is offline
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the sad thing about the military is, that "if the idea did not work before, we should try it again" attitude. I am not blaming just the military with this philosophy incidentally.
The Germans in WWII were getting deperate and short of armour so they started slapping 5 & 7.5 cm long barrel guns on their Sd. Kfz. 234 8 wheeled armoured cars. In amush mode they worked okay but as soon as the first shot rang out they were overclassed and destroyed. The best was to keep them far back and use in support of an infantry attack or in the stop gap situtation that they were intended. Better them than nothing.
However , reading Panzer Taktics, as the war went on , it was more and more likely to use a recce troop of Pathers to probe and reconnoitre instead of light skinned vehicles, at least in armour formations.
Also, I would envision these new weapons to be used in roles not conceived for it. IE, if you are under attack and its all you have , its going to be used in the direct fire role against armour instead of a tank. Where it would seem missles fired from longer range with the light armour vehicles would be prefered. Seemed to work for the Bradleys in 1991 anyway.
Well here is hoping that a few Canadian restorers buy the Leopards and keep them in shipshape so the Canadian goverment can buy them back sometime in the future when they are desperate. Like the UK government did with the Humber Pig for NOrth Ireland patrol. Gosh, isn't history just full of examples of stuff
Sean
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Last edited by Snowtractor; 15-07-05 at 21:10.
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  #24  
Old 15-07-05, 22:30
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alleramilitaria alleramilitaria is offline
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the bradley didnt use the tow too much durring the 1991 war. to use it you had to stop accuire the tgt, then fire and hope the slow SOB got there in time. most of the time the APFSDS was used in a knife fight with the T-55s, and type 59s. (few T-72s were distroyed in combat) but when it came to fighting the infantry the M1s were king, the M2s had real problems with the ATRs, and ATGMs. i had one go up right in front of me at the battle of northfork. that night we lost about 5 vehicles from TF 1-41 3 M-2A1s and 2 M1a1s (from 2-66 ar bn helping out) friendly fire.
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  #25  
Old 14-09-05, 03:07
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These tanks sold in the $10000 to $16000 range. Here's a link to a search I did on the crown assets site.

http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/search/listitem-e.cfm
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  #26  
Old 14-09-05, 03:16
cletrac (RIP)'s Avatar
cletrac (RIP) cletrac (RIP) is offline
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That link didn't work so I did the copy/paste thingee instead.

What Has Been Sold

Sold For: $13,636.41
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-001
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85065
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sold For: $14,326.41
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-002
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85067
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sold For: $12,320.00
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-003
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85073
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sold For: $15,125.00
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-004
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85156
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): MONTREAL,QC

Sold For: $10,500.00
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-005
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85084
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB

Sold For: $16,200.00 Top of Page
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-006
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85118
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB

Sold For: $10,500.00
Sale Account: R5MO05051-R5051-007
Description: Leopard Chassis ( incomplete - Turret removed ) CFR:85125
Posted Date: 21-Jun-2005
Closing Date: 01-Aug-2005
Location of Asset(s): DENWOOD,AB
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  #27  
Old 14-09-05, 18:52
pkitson
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Where did they go?
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  #28  
Old 16-09-05, 02:53
Harry Moon Harry Moon is online now
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2 are going to Ian Newby' International Movie Services in Aldergrove B.C.
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  #29  
Old 17-09-05, 16:43
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sapper740 sapper740 is offline
Derek Heuring
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Harry Moon
2 are going to Ian Newby' International Movie Services in Aldergrove B.C.
No surprise there eh Harry! Ian is famous (infamous?) for his ability to locate and get permission to remove armour and vehicles from bases throughout Canada. Next time I'm in B.C. we'll get together for a beer and I'll tell you some stories about his "museum"
Y'know, that 17 pounder sitting outside the Legion in Cloverdale would like right at home behind my CMP, maybe I should give Ian a call!
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  #30  
Old 17-09-05, 17:11
Harry Moon Harry Moon is online now
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The 17 pdr has moved and is believed to have moved to a local veterans cemetary. I haven't looked for it myself.
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