SAF Lithgow Museum

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #1 02-02-04, 10:13

Took these pics in June 2003. Australia's AUSTEN 9mm SMG/SMC

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #2 02-02-04, 10:17

SMLE's etc...

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #3 02-02-04, 10:18

more..... German stuff, and rare too!

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #4 02-02-04, 10:21

A rare MG from a WW2 German He 111. Some of these pics were taken the Museum's armoury, and are not accessed to the general public.

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #5 02-02-04, 10:26

The back end of a L3A3/A4 .30 MG. It should be noted that this gun is a modified version of the M1919A4, and differes mainly,in it fires from an open bolt. This mod is done at Base Repair Level, and incorporates a new bolt, and trigger mech. See the different trigger, as opposed to a M1919A4. The MG also has a Lithgow mod'd safety bar on the right hand side.

The L3A3/A4 is still in use in th ADF, in the T50 Turret on our M113 APCs, where a side by side .50M2 and .30 are mounted.

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #6 02-02-04, 10:28

BRENs BRENs and more BRENs. Lithgows, Inglis's and Enfields

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #7 02-02-04, 10:31

more....

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #8 02-02-04, 10:32

more BRENs ...

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #9 02-02-04, 10:40

For comparison, this is a converted BREN in .303, a Enfiled British LMG to a L4 BREN series in 7.62 x 51mm (NATO). These LMG's that are 7.62mm are all MkII's. None that I have seen (or heard of) were old MkIm's with the dial sight.

These L4 LMG's were in service well into the mid 1990's in some ARes units. The 30 rd mags,curved and designed for the L4, also interchanged with the SLR and AR (L2A1), but the SLR used a 20 rd, like the FN(C1)A1, the AR a straight 30rd like the Cdn FN(C2)A1.

Sadly the ADF destroyed all remaining Mk1 and MkII .303 LMG's about 6 yrs ago, then destroyed all the L4's later, and hence the demise of our military small arms heritage.

Hope you enjoyed the pics.

Cheers

Wes

Jon Skagfeld · #10 09-02-04, 00:45

Wes; pictures are nirvana for a collector and militaria historian type.

Thanks.

Do I read your thread correctly, that ALL Brens were destroyed by ADF?

Looks like there was a unique method of securing these weapons to display fixtures...not like the bloody hoops we have to jump through here!

Trying to get e-mail address for Greg Betts...if I'm successful, do you want the link?

PS: regarding your web gear...we found that the holder for KFS and C5 utility knife attracted too much dirt, etc, when going to ground. We usually tucked said item into utility pouch or breast pocket.

Regards

Richard Farrant · #11 09-02-04, 01:05

Quote:

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
Sadly the ADF destroyed all remaining Mk1 and MkII .303 LMG's about 6 yrs ago, then destroyed all the L4's later, and hence the demise of our military small arms heritage.

Wes,
A lot of Lithgow BRENs came on the market in the UK a few years back, all deactivated I hasten to add.

Also about 6/7 years ago, I was with a friend at a small club militaria swap meet and a guy there had a "as new" Vickers on its tripod, he said it had been found stored in a warehouse in Liverpool and he had a piece of paper with it somewhere. When he found it, I immediately realised that he had mistakenly thought it to have been Liverpool, England, where in fact this despatch note related to its movement from Lithgow to an ordnance depot in Liverpool NSW.

Richard

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #12 09-02-04, 04:32

That warehouse is located in Moorebank, about 5 mins from Liverpool, or Cesspool as I call it. Very much a violent and dirty place in Sydney to avoid (otherwords never go there), unless you speak fluent arabic. High population of unemployed, and a haven for hardcore drug activity, and worse. Needless to say, I avoid it like the plague, and I was there simply to pick up some new blinds for our house back in The Shire.

However, if you ever do get to the Liverpool RSL, the SMLE sniper and the Type 14 pistol on display there, I de-activiated them in a manner IAW current RAEME EMEI's at the time, and did it well preserving them as best I could, and to the trained eye, they look excellent. Both firearms came out of an estate of a Digger who passed away, and his family donated them to the club.

One time I had a MAG 58 MG barrel fall from a storage shelf on me (bloody RAAOC's hehe). It put a nasty 'GSW' type wound in my shin. The Army decided that I go to a local contacted civvy medical centre, and the staff there wanted to call the police, because of the wound's GSW appearance, and they see heaps of GSW's and related type stuff there. Wierd but true.

Moorebank has a large defence storage area, and is neatly tucked away on ADF land. It borders on Holsworthy, which is a well known Army base for many, many years, and former home of the 1st Brigade.

About the Vickers. Back in the mid 90's all (small amount kept for heritage purposes) went to smelt. They too met their fate, and there were some who somehow (and I do mean somehow) left the depot, and donated to local RSLs etc.

There was many 205 Litre drums of Vickers CES (Complete Eqpt Scale), brass bore mirrors, leather accessory pouches with smaller supple leather pouches filled with punches, and pliers. All on its way to smelt. I belive some of the large leather carry pouches made it to Pickles Auction on Moorebank Avenue. Most of this eqpt was dated 1942-44, and all Australian made, and so marked.

In 1998 I was tasked by the RACMP (MPs) to conduct an technical inspection on a Vickers MG which was siezed by NSW Police from a local RSL (Ingleburn I do believe ??). The ARN of the gun was on a list which apparently had been destroyed (hummmmm). Go figure.

You know I hate doing things like this, but I did as I was told, and I found the MG to be complete with lock, and as presented to me, alls it needed was a good cleaning, a tripod (which was still at the RSL) and a fresh cloth belt of .303 4B1T. The bore was as shiny as the day it was made! Just heaps of LTS preservative.

After the MPs were done their investigation, the MG was sent to the 'butcher' for complete and utter de-activiation, and hence returned to the club.

The MG was as new, and never issued.

A shame, but in todays politically correct Australia, it was a 'tick' in the box for the govt, and another 'bad gun' destroyed.

Now the Lithgow Mk1m BRENs, these most likey were in the UK all then time, possibly on a lend - lease agreement of some kind.

I was present when the ones here were destroyed in total (many thousand), first de-greased, bolts removed, and sent by the tipper truck full, out to Port Kembla to meet their fate.

I remember seeing some colourful butt stocks, some painted up in that 40's style of writing, and ones which stick out in my mind are 'Glory III' and 'Blonde Edna'. Our history gone up in smoke (literally).

In about 1995, I had even witnessed dozens of SMLE bayonets go to smelt, and many were WW1 dated, some Lithgow pre 1915 (yes, with hooked quillion), and many WW1 dated British, many marked RANB Royal Australian Naval Battalion). These had been in storage for yonks, coming from the RAN Zetland facility near Botany. More history gone. However, some were secretly liberated before destruction. I can assure you that. I even remember seeing a Vickers manufactured one, and many MA WW2 dated. But heaps of WW1, and of those some were as old as 1910 and 1911.

It broke my collector's heart to see all of this go, and I even remember WW1 dated SMLE snipers go out too (less optics), along with Type 14 Nambu Jap pistols, Arisaka rifles, Jap Type 96, and Type 99 MG's, M1 carbines and Garands, .45 M1911A1's, M14, SKS, RPD, RPK, AK, AKM's, RPG 7's, and many other Viet Nam era items, of many which were returned by 'order' from messes, Q Stores and museums. Some had many Unit historical signifigance, but the policy of all guns are bad prevailed, and still does here.

The policy of the time where I was at was simple. If it is not a current catalogue item, out it goes. Plain and simple.

Regards,

Wes

PS - Lithgow had many doubles in their collection, and to appease the govt, half of their historic collection was destoyed. Yes it was even on the national news!

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #13 09-02-04, 04:41

Here is a pic of the Liverpool area taken recently. Hard to belive I actually risked personal safety to take pics in my own city. Many locals running out giving me VERY dirty looks (hehe).

I'll see if I can find my poloroids of some BRENS stacked like firewood, awaiting destruction...

Cheers,

Wes

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #14 09-02-04, 04:42

A parting shot...
Cheers,
Wes

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #15 09-02-04, 11:03

Sure, when you get his email address, let me know. We did exchange emails before his departure for Canada, but somewhere along the road, I must have misplaced it.

Thanks,

Wes

RAEMETIFFYSGT · #16 10-02-04, 02:28

Hi Jon, sorry I missed your question about ADf involvment in the destruction of the BRENs.

Yes, as they were ADF (Australian Defence Force) property, held on ADF land, and therefore disposed of by the ADF thru Port Kembla foundries, at Wollongong, and about 40km south of Sydney's southern fringe burbs.

The BRENs were actually in another secure location at Bandiana, on the NSW/Vic frontier. They were trucked to Moorebank, unloaded in a secure area, then as mentioned, degreased, stripped, and loaded into tipper trucks, and sent of to smelt.

On a happier note the + or - 30,000 L1A1 SLRs which are still held by the ADF, are in fact being sold not for scrap, but intact, to several US consortiums deemed for the USA civvy market. The upper recievers will be stipped out, and removed, and gas axed. The rifles then will be sold as kits (less upper) , with US or foreign uppers made without the S/sear, and hence complying with current US BATF regualtions.

Rumoured cost per rifle is $25.00US which includes all CES (EIS for you Cdns), minunum buy rumoured at 2,000. Buyers must meet ADF criteria for purchasing this type of eqpt. The cost does not include any shipping.

Tenders closed mid January 2004.

At least they are not going to be destroyed.

Cheers,

Wes