Guy Ant and Quad Ant photo

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Does anyone have any idea when the FAT and truck might have been built, i.e. early or late war, by the "build" please?

It is interesting to compare the 4x2 Ant that preceded the Quad Ant, with its derivative.

[Rob Beale]

that its not early war, due to the doors on the Ant. But does anyone know when the doors and full windscreens were fitted?

Rob

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think that this is a Vixant, the Vixen-Ant cross, shown during the war as a water tanker [?] for the populace.

[Neil Ashley]

I think most books state the 4X4 truck replaced the Quad in production. I thought Bart gave an introduction date (1944?) in his directory.

If correct I assume the Quad must have been deleted from production some time earlier? Up to the Morris version they must have been of limited value and Guy were presumably unable to produce in large numbers.

[Dave Page]

Hi,
Nice images!
I had a 1943 Guy Ant GS and that had the full windscreens, very early models had the aero screens but I don't know when the change took place. The house-type Wireless-Ant had full windscreens and doors as well as the peaked bonnet, like the civillian Vix-Ant.
I thought by late 1943 early 1944 most of the Ants, Quad-Ants GS and FATs were declared obsolete and sent off to various countries or training establishments.
I have seen a post-war? image of Quad Ant Fats (possibly an entire battery's worth) being presented to the Turkish government for their help (remaining neutral but allowing CKD factories to be set-up and access routes through to Russia).
Dave

[Keith Webb]

Here's a new one, and below is a shot of Ian Styles' Guy in Temora.

I think the Guy Quad-Ant was built from 1938-43.





Ian's was built as part of a batch of 394 in August 1940.



More pics

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Keith, do you by any chance have a good hi-res copy of the top photo please? It's of a T.8931 FAT, and the record card shows that the T 769 ones were similar to the 8931 deliveries.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Keith, do you by any chance have a good hi-res copy of the top photo please? It's of a T.8931 FAT, and the record card shows that the T 769 ones were similar to the 8931 deliveries.

Sorry, David but no, it was copied from a photocopy Ian had so that's about as good as I have.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Can I just check please...that is a 4x2 Ant next to the Quad Ant FAT please? Interesting that the Ant was just a 15-cwt, and yet the FAT was effectively a 3-tonner.

[Dave Page]

Hi,
if you are talking about the first image, then it is a: Truck, 15cwt, G.S. 4x4 Guy "Quad-Ant" next to a Guy F.A.T.
The cross-country rating on the 4x4 G.S. "Quad-Ant" is the same as the 4x2 G.S. "Ant". The Ants were basically manufactured from 3 tonner truck and bus parts, so are quite capable of carrying 1 ton on road. However, the Quad-Ant G.S. carried it's load higher than the Ant as it had 20" wheels, special axles (not of civ. origin) and weighed 1 ton more. Towing with the "Quad-Ant" G.S. was not recommended.
Correct me if I am wrong but I though it was mentioned somewhere that the G.S. "Quad-Ant" was made from left over FAT chassis. Guy Motors may have ended up with a less balanced vehicle than either the "Ant" or FAT.
Cheers,
Dave

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Dave. The Census Number listing seems to mention just H [and Z?] 5330808-5330819 Contract S.4882 for "Tractor 4 x 4 Ant-tank 6-pdr" and "Truck 15cwt 4x4 G/S". All other "Ants" are listed as 15cwt 4x2. Unless there are more not in the listing?
Note the Michael Mouse ears' camo, which rather dates the photo.

[Dave Page]

Hi David,
the first image in this string may be a Guy Motors trials or mock-up picture as neither vehicle has a census number. Regarding the "micky mouse" pattern on the canvas, that tilt cover may have been borrowed from an Ant. Likewise, the rear body is the same as fitted to 15cwt Ants, and it also may have been refitted from an Ant. I would imagine that Guy were trying very hard to get another lease on life on the Quad chassis (I would bet they had more than a few spares parts lying about).
I still find it interesting that the Guy Quad FAT was found to be one of the better types of it's time but with a later remodelling into a 15cwt G.S. it was found wanting, and not recommended to tow anywhere near what it had previously been able to. Sometimes designers get it right the first time then they try and improve it and screw it up.
Cheers,
Dave

[Rob Beale]

in the leading photo the FAT has 16" wheels, while the Quad GS is on 20" rims. Why the change? Would this affect its handling aside from the gearing ratios?

Rob

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rob Beale
in the leading photo the FAT has 16" wheels, while the Quad GS is on 20" rims. Why the change? Would this affect its handling aside from the gearing ratios?

Rob,

Early FAT models were fitted with 10.50-20 tyres, then later ones were fitted with 9.00-16. Maybe in an effort to lower the gear ratio, as the engine was short on horsepower in comparison to a MCC C8.

Source: War Office Data book of Whld Vehs 1945

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Dave Page

I still find it interesting that the Guy Quad FAT was found to be one of the better types of it's time but with a later remodelling into a 15cwt G.S. it was found wanting, and not recommended to tow anywhere near what it had previously been able to.

Dave,

There was an issue regarding towing with Quad-Ants of both FAT and GS versions. Looking at the War Office Data Book of 1944-45, both of the versions are listed as "Not Recommended" for towing on Normal Roads, Hilly Roads and Cross Country. Possibly down to low powered engine and cable brakes?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The photo is apparently dated 22nd May 1945!

[Mike K]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I think that this is a Vixant, the Vixen-Ant cross, shown during the war as a water tanker [?] for the populace.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed . The Bedford O series truck/food van behind the Vixant is apparently finished in light stone/sky blue camo scheme . The colour of war TV doco series depicts one of these food van Bedfords in the sky blue/yellow camo finish .. it's a strange scheme . Does anyone know the reasoning behind it ?

Mike

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have a few more of the photos from that event, and also a couple more from AN ACCOUNT OF OUR STEWARDSHIP, Vauxhall's post-war book. There is a another swb..OX is it? with military tyres and a Bedford-Scammell with civvy wheels. These were run by the Ministry of Food. What was the model number for the flat-front OSS equivalent please?

[Dave Page]

Hi Richard,
from my own (Ant and Wireless Ant) experience I can assure you the Meadows 4ELA engine produced a lot of torque and the gearing was certainly low enough. You would be in top gear at 15mph and could pretty much stay there all day if you wanted, regardless of the hills.
The unfairly maligned cable brakes were Bendix "duo-servo"; the lead shoe energized the trailing shoe. If they were set up correctly, and then adjusted regularly, they were very good. I had an old chap advise me on setting up the brakes on my Ant and on the first test "panic stop" the passenger's face almost hit the windscreen. Even when towing two trailers she pulled up very well. And I never had any issues with leaking master or wheel cylinders, nor did she ever pull to one side.
Cheers,
Dave

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I have a few more of the photos from that event, and also a couple more from AN ACCOUNT OF OUR STEWARDSHIP, Vauxhall's post-war book. There is a another swb..OX is it? with military tyres and a Bedford-Scammell with civvy wheels. These were run by the Ministry of Food. What was the model number for the flat-front OSS equivalent please?

David,

I know this is off the subject of thread, but the Bedford mobile canteen is an OXC probably with body by Spurling. The Bedford-Scammell tractor unit with military type bonnet is also an OXC.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Dave Page
,
my own (Ant and Wireless Ant) experience I can assure you the Meadows 4ELA engine produced a lot of torque and the gearing was certainly low enough. You would be in top gear at 15mph and could pretty much stay there all day if you wanted, regardless of the hills.

Dave,

Then I wonder why the War Office singled out both of the 4x4 models as "Not Recommended" to tow over any terrain, roads or cross country. There is no other vehicle listed with this instruction in full.

[Dave Page]

Hi Richard,
I would suggest the redesign (to 4x4 15cwt) raised the centre of gravity and upset the balance/stability. Also the empty Quad-Ants were carrying an additional 1 ton more than the Ant, from the front diff, transfer case and winch, with no significant increase in power, 55 bhp in the Ant to 58bhp in the FAT. The transfer case and winch are at chassis level, so there alone is a significant height change in C.O.G.
The changes they made equate to: an Ant carrying 1 ton, on-road, which is OK, then adding a payload of another 15cwt to that, I could see that becoming taxing on horsepower, let alone then towing something of another ton or two. After getting going you have to stop, which I have always found to be a good thing to do. Harder braking means severe wear on shoes, which means a more frequent maintenance schedule.
Well, it is a though or two.
Cheers,
Dave

[James Baxter]

My father was a Royal Horse Artillery Troop Commander in France in 1940. His guns were First World War 18pdrs, with the original artillery wheels replaced by pneumatic tyres. Apparently some of the guns had been obtained from a Canadian military museum. The gun tractors were Guy Quad FATs. I do remember him telling me that they were considered under powered and unreliable, and that he was quite happy to leave them for the Germans when he was finally captured at a place called Cassel, just outside Dunkirk, in May 1940. I have attached a photo of FATs from his regiment in the town of Cassel after the Germans had captured it, the photo being taken by a German propaganda film unit.

The car behind the 18pdr gun looks like a Simca 8, perhaps belonging to the regiment's French Liaison officer, or maybe purloined by the invading Germans.

Hope this is of interest, although I admit it adds nothing to the technical debate.

James

[Les Freathy]

Prototype artillery tractor

And production Quad Ant

[James Baxter]

Another photo from Cassel of dead Quad Ant. Other trucks seem to be Morris Commercial 8cwt and Bedford MW 15cwts

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From Jane's Fighting Ships 1944-45, courtesy of Jan Roelse.