Canadian contract jeeps (was: CDLV 505 Jeep Serial numbers...)

[wim sikkelbein]

Colin,

What can i say, it's always tricky quoting from a book. Could you provide us with more accurate data on the WD numbers and production data?

Wim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra in Dodge D-15 and D-60 info:
Here's another wartime pic of a D15. It was identified by Steve Guthrie on the missing-lynx.com forum as National Archives of Canada photo nr. PA140205, taken near Camobasso. Unusually, the jeep is of interest too as it is a Canadian contract one.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
Hanoo, it is funny you should mention obtaining snippets here and there. this seems to be what I have been finding as well, as there is no definative one stop place to find all the info.
It seems some fellows with info are not exactly forthcoming in sharing, that is they hoard it for their own personal pleasure (its mine all mine mentality)
At any rate, it would be good to put all the Canadian contract info in one place.
I will try and get all the details down on the forum as time permits and I come across whatever I have.
I do value the opinions of all in this discussion and surely arguements will crop up on specific points.
As far as the colour thing goes, it seems to me that even the experts disagree on what is right or wrong.
Going from the paint as it appears on parts of my 505 contract jeep, they certainly appear to my eye to be the same as US 33070 colour.
Even the US based guys can't agree on specific colours on their own jeeps so this is one of these quandries that may or may not ever be answered. As for my jeep, it will be painted in standard US colour as found.
Thoughts anyone?

Just continuing cutting and pasting snippets of information here until we have all the facts.

In Maple Leaf Jeeps (Wheels & Tracks issue no.1), Bart Vanderveen writes (bold font added by me):

• "Our copy of Parts List TM-10-1512 of April 1942 (Willys-Overland MB 'Government Truck') has a rear pocket containing a Parts Price List and two separate lists of (a) Parts peculiar to the US Marine Corps Truck and (b) Parts peculiar to the Light Utility Vehicle built for the Canadian Government. Both lists give different parts numbers for scores of items, many of which differed from the US Army versions only in colour. Included are such major assemblies as the frame, the body and others such as hood (bonnet) and windshield (windscreen)."

I feel this is an important piece of information adding to the other pieces pointing towards the Canadian Jeeps being painted a different colour than the standard US Olive Drab.
The challenge continues to endorse this line of thought and to determine which colour it was. During 1941- 42 the Standard Camouflage Colour Shades ( S.C.Cs.) came into use alongside and then supplanting the greens from the period before that. The basic shade was Khaki Green 3 or S.C.C. 2, while during 1942- 44 M.T.P. 46/4A prescribed S.C.C. 2 as “Basic Paint” for vehicles.

When exactly were the Canadian contract Jeeps ordered?

From the visual clues listed here I'd say the most likely colour is Khaki Green 3, as this dark rich yellow-green would weather and age into what looks a lot like US Olive Drab?

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,
Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

Coming soon (in fact I approved the proof last week and expect delivery by 24 August.)

http://www.servicepub.com/images/jeep%20cover2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by servicepub
Coming soon (in fact I approved the proof last week and expect delivery by 24 August.)

Great Clive!

Can you tell us whether this book lists Canadian contract numbers, serial number and census number ranges, delivery dates, build specs, colour, etc., etc. (i.e. everything the Canadian vehicle afficionado would want to know)?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Chris Vickery wrote:

Colin, my MB was mfg around Aug 31, 1942 or possibly Sept 1, 1942. Trying to make it as correct as possible, I could therefore use a non script body, add the BODL assy and eliminate the lifting rings and still be OK?

Canadian contract W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 CDLV 505 last batch of jeeps (technically although they are part of the MB serial number sequence and have the MB chassis according to the dash data plate, they are not MBs but rather are a sub-variant) made between Aug 31 to Sept 2 1942 were approx SN MB 170383 - 171286 (based upon known surviving examples +/or data plates recorded in my data base which has 1,539 WWII jeeps plus many post-war Canadian jeeps, trailers, Ferrets etc. These jeeps had:
1. Black out drive light on left fender
2. CDLV 505 data plates (including the special manuals one on dash over the steering column)
3. Three stud spare tire carrier
4. NO "WILLYS" script
5. Did have Jerrican carrier
6. Did have safety rings for pintle hook
7. Did have trailer socket for electrical connection.
8. Did have the four lifting rings (note they are NOT towing rings. USMC special contract jeeps also had these four lifting rings and as well two front tow hooks on top of frame horns but Canadian jeeps did not have the two tow hooks.

The parts manuals go into detail for Canadian changes e.g. a minor wiring change in the light switch.

Evidence indicates that the convoy light was added in UK as was the convoy light switch. Also added in UK were the blackout head light guards and special black out headlight (I have one NOS and have several replicas of the BO headlight guard but would like an original - found 3 but could not talk owners out of any.)

Hanno - Regarding the new book on Canadian jeeps coming out from Service Publications - I expect it will be good and will use material from our national archives in Ottawa but it will not have all the details that collectors want as the series is not aimed at collectors and restorers, but rather at the casual market. It will be worth buying however as the series is a good overview of the various Canadian vehicles.

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno and all.

Colin is correct in that this book on Canadian WW2 Jeeps gives basic information.

I am in the process of creating a book with all of the details which you are asking for and more, directed towards the restorer.
I am sure Colin is working on one as well . You can't have too many jeep books eh?

Any information provided by any of the readers would be usefull, even if i already have it. Unlike the US we do not have a list of War Department numbers or Serial numbers in our archives and people like myself and Colin are depending on the collectors to contact us and provide what they have or know, including original photos and mods.

Thanks

Eric

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hanno,

Colin and Eric have already answered on my behalf but I will elaborate. The Weapons of War series is designed for the modeller, museum visitor, veteran and youth markets and not for the 1:1 scale enthusiast. Nonetheless, it has been my experience that these booklets are so well researched that they contain much new information, as well as previously unseen photos, that they are a benefit to this group also.
I know that Eric has dug up the original contracts and has all sorts of information available for the "big" book on Canadian jeeps. This may take a while before it comes out but it will probably run 200 pages and will have a substantial number of colour images.
The input from restorers and collectors is very important as the DND and WD census numbers list for Canadian vehicles is non-existant. Although it cannot be 100% accurate, the book will provide 'ranges' of numbers which will be of enormous use.
Thanks to all for your ongoing support. In addition to "The WWII Jeep in Canadian Service" I will be releasing "The Armoured Autocar in Canadian Service" at the same time.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/jeep%20cover2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Colin, Eric, Clive,

Thanks for your replies. I will eagerly await Eric's Canadian Jeep monograph, but in the mean time I would like to encourage the forum members to collect as much as possible data on the Candian Contract Jeeps here.

I myself am very much interested in the configuration of the various batches, as an aid to visual recognition.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"An unidentified officer of The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment) stencilling the regiment's identification number on a jeep, England, ca. 30 May-1 June 1943" ( source ).

Nice picture showing W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 details:
- rear lifting ring behind bumperette
- three stud spare tire carrier
- "WILLYS" script
- no Jerrycan carrier
- no safety rings for pintle hook
- no trailer socket for electrical connection
- note white painted rear differential cover, so British lighting is most likely fitted

Does this make it a CDLV 242 contract jeep?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another picture (from Bart Vanderveen's The Jeep) of a CDLV 242 slat grill jeep, note it has two headlight guards. Usually they had only one, fitted to the left hand headlight, didn't they?

H.

[Barry Hampton]

Hanno, the Lorne Scots Jeep I would say is definitely 242 contract. Please note the body male fittings for some sort of enclosure. Mine also has this, but not all Canadian contract ones have them.
The second photo I have seen before and is captioned as Monty in General Crerars Jeep. The hood number is unusual as it seems to be 116102 - not a 421 or 423 prefix. My slat grill is drilled for headlamp guards on both sides but most photos show one only on left and bridge plate on right. This probably fits with the original 241/242 contract ordered late 41 "for 2000 vehicles delivered by 15th Feb 42, which stated "Two thousand "Defence Aid" blackout lighting equipment, hooded type, in accordance with the specifications referred to in Article 5 hereof. The equipment will be installed on the cars covered by Items 1 and 3 above"
Items 1 and 3 relate to order for 1500 and 500 Jeeps. Article 5 is a full list of specifications "in accordance with the United States Quartermaster Corps Specifications L.P./91/997A, subject to all changes to said specifications.......up to and including October 22 1941"
Specifically the "Defence Aid" lights orders a single front headlamp mounted on the left side but with a pigtail sufficiently long enough to mount the lamp on the right if needed. Radiator grill extensions provided on both sides and rear tail lamps (2) will be duplicates of the right hand tail light provided for in the US Blackout specification.
If anyone has a copy of the USQMC Specification above, we may be getting somewhere.

Hope this helps.

[Barry Hampton]

Amendment to my last - General Crerars Jeep appears to be CM 1165501. The colour phot Hanno posted earlier is CM 166102.

I tend to note CM bonnet numbers for slat grills but misread my notes.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Lorne Scots jeep in photo earlier in this discussion: Could be either CDLV-242 or early CDLV-505. They are the same at the rear. Early production CDLV-505 were script WILLYS (April and July production). I used to own MB 155796 CDLV 505 and it was script.

Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS). One survived with both guards in place and was rescued from a farm in England though back of jeep had been cutaway. As it was only used on farm, the blackout headlight guards remained in place all those years! I have a photo of it. Here is data on that jeep from my data base of WWII jeeps.

SN MB 118865 CDLV-242 Original WD # CM1165643
Tub # 22261 Orig Engine 120218 Present engine MB248804 Made Wed 2-11-42
"Ex-Capt. Justin Stuart Mallinson farm vehicle. Bought at auction (?) in Essex for £10 and registered as HXE 67. Driven to Dorset and used on farm there until 1983. Stored in barn 1983-1987. Sold to Tim Bourbon NOV 1987. Then under restoration. In Nov 1987, still had original blackout headlight guards in place. Rear of body was cut off and discarded by farmer. Under restoration 1989."



COLIN STEVENS

[Barry Hampton]

Interesting stuff Colin. I based my opinion of Lorne Scots being 242 as the Jeep in the background (assuming these are all Lorne Scots vehicles)has the early one piece wheels which pre-date the 505s and the Jeep does seem to have had some wear.

Do you know what type of enclosure the studs on the body were for?

Do you have any info on 119343 (mine)? I know it was sold in 46 to a farmer and road registered. Sold in mid/late 70s and restored. I bought it 81 and shown on log book as 2nd keeper.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Sorry I do not have info on your jeep specifically. I would be most interested to know the following about yours:
Date made:
Original Engine Number:
Contract (presumably CDLV 242):
WD number original for this vehicle:
Body tub number:
Any original markings found during restoration:

Frank Von Rosenstiel in Ontario, Canada has (or had) MB 119326 and from that and other info yours should be tub # 22XXX and was likely made 2-12-42 or 2-13-42.



Colin Stevens

Owner:
1942 MB-BRT 124345
1944 MB VDN-1121 (ex-1 AB Div; ex-Norway)
etc.

Former owner:
1942 MB 119021 (now Federal Government of Canada - Fort Rodd Hill NHS, Victoria, BC)
1942 MB 119446 (now Dean Wilcox, Coquitlam, BC)
1942 MB 155796 (now in Los Angeles, CA, USA)
1942 GPA 4545 (now in USA)
11943 GPW (ex-Defence Research Board) Now in Alberta.

[Barry Hampton]

Hi Colin, details as follows
Chassis Number; 119343
Engine number (on Data Plate): 120846
Engine Number actually fitted: 121233 (date 2-2 on block)
Contract: CDLV 242
Date of Delivery: 12th Feb 42
Body Tub Number: 22132

Unfortunately, any markings had been lost before I bought the Jeep. I would love to know the hood number, but guess its a CM 421xxx. Anything you can tell me on this would be welcome.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS).

Colin, could it look like this? Or does anybody else recognise this type of headlight, please?

Note marker light on top, and improvised mud flap on front of the mudguard.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks for your input, Barry.

Originally posted by Barry Hampton
My slat grill is drilled for headlamp guards on both sides but most photos show one only on left and bridge plate on right.

Could it be only (later) vehicles intended for overseas use had one guard omitted to be fitted with a bridge classification plate?

Specifically the "Defence Aid" lights orders a single front headlamp mounted on the left side but with a pigtail sufficiently long enough to mount the lamp on the right if needed.

Indeed some pictures show jeeps with the headlight and bridge classification sign swapped over. Why would they switch the headlight over to the right hand side?

Thanks,
Hanno

"Corporal Harry Maud of 'B’ Squadron, The British Columbia Regiment, with a jeep, Helvoirt, Netherlands, 18 November 1944" ( source )

[Eric B]

Hello

I have found no orders or instructions to moving the blackout headlights and bridge plates to the opposite side from where they were placed when assembled. I have seen various photos with one or the other missing or on the opposite side. Generally these photos were taken once the vehicle had left Britain.

War Department number do not generally coincide with the Jeep contract.

When the CDN Contract jeeps were assembled in Britain they were assigned CMD numbers. These were then changed to War Department numbers once the vehicle was assigned permanantly to a Unit.

The British allotted batches of their War Depatment numbers to be assigned to the Canadian Vehicles, therefore you will not see a British and Canadian vehicle with the same number unless it is the same vehicle.

The 116XXXX numbers are generally the earlier contracts, but i have seen 505 and 242 jeeps assigned numbers after a GPW, which we would have bought used in 1943 and later.

Some vehicles were also renumbered for an unknown reason. There is a case of a 116xxxx number being renumbered to a 423xxxx.

RCN and RCAF were also assigned vehicles from the Army and some of these were renumber to their own service's numbering systems but some still kept the original WD number.

We also received and traded jeeps with the British, which explains why some of the CDN Vehicles have no C in front of them.

I have never seen the odd headlight before. Any chance of seeing a copy of the rest of the photo?

Thanks

Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Eric B
I have never seen the odd headlight before. Any chance of seeing a copy of the rest of the photo?

Eric, Sure! I found it on the Netherlands Photo Museum website: http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/

The picture is captioned "Canadian driver of an Allied jeep who is waiting patiently, after he entered Amsterdam with three colleagues on 2 or 3 May already, to the amazement of the public, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)"

I think the registration number reads CM4242954 (or 34).

Nummer beschrijving 407951; Fotonummer Vol00020004_0_52_00010520; Fotograaf Jongkind, Cees N.; Inventarisnummer 8; Negatiefnummer 30;
Bijschrift NL: Een Canadese chauffeur van een geallieerde jeep wacht rustig af, nadat hij met drie collega's al op 2 of 3 mei de Amsterdamse binnenstad was ingereden, dit tot verbijstering van het toegesnelde publiek, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)
Stad/Dorp Amsterdam; Opnamedatum op/vanaf 1945-05-02; Opnamedatum t/m 1945-05-08

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's another picture of the very same jeep. Zooming in on the registration number I think it reads CM4242954.

Nummer beschrijving 407949; Fotonummer
Vol00020004_8_51_00010518; Fotograaf Jongkind, Cees N.; Inventarisnummer 8; Negatiefnummer 28
Bijschrift NL: Een Canadese chauffeur van een geallieerde jeep wacht rustig af, nadat hij met drie collega's al op 2 of 3 mei de Amsterdamse binnenstad was ingereden, dit tot verbijstering van het toegesnelde publiek, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)
Stad/Dorp Amsterdam; Opnamedatum op/vanaf 1945-05-02; Opnamedatum t/m 1945-05-08

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Barry Hampton
Please note the body male fittings for some sort of enclosure. Mine also has this, but not all Canadian contract ones have them.

Barry,

Are these not the footman loops to fit the canvas top cover?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS).

Colin,

Is this the type of headlight you are referring to?

Hanno

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno

Yes that is a jeep blackout headlight, i have a NOS one as well.

Thanks for the link to the photo. I am always looking for these and serial and WD numbers to go with them.

It is possible that since the troops were now driving on the right side of the road on the Continent that they felt they needed to change the side the light was located??

Anything was possible in the field.


The fasteners are part of a winter enclosure, i am not sure if it was an official or local mod.

Thanks
Eric

[Barry Hampton]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Are these not the footman loops to fit the canvas top cover?

Hi Hanno, the fittings I'm looking at are the male studs on the top edges of the body tub. The photos I've seen with these fittings all show them in the same positions suggesting it is a standard made enclosure rather than a field mod. The studs are approx half inch on the flat part of the body and 3/4 inch on the curves.
Barry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Over on http://www.gaf.zeelandnet.nl a Dutchman is offerering a French text book about the restauration of a slat grille Willys MB. Reportedly, this book contains 140 pages with pictures and information on all the unique parts and details of Canadian contract jeeps.

Anyone seen this book?

Hanno

Naam: Jacco
Datum: 3 March 2009
Telnr.: 0629421632
Rubriek: Boeken
Aangeboden: Aangeboden:

Nieuw Jeepboek speciaal over de Willys Early MB Jeep in Canadese uitvoering!!

Meer dan 140 pagina's vol met fotos en informatie!

Alle onderdelen en unieke details over de Willys Early MB worden aan de hand van originele fotos en een verslag van de restauratie van een Canadese Early MB weergegeven! Dus ook veel informatie over de correcte uitvoering van Canadese Jeeps!!

34,50 per stuk, porto, 6,75

[Barry Hampton]

No Hanno, I haven't seen this, but a French text wouldn't help me much!

It will be interesting to see how comprehensive it is.

[serge]

Hello

Colors pics enjoy every thread and last month in PARIS (FRANCE) there was a great exposition about old cars. The most of them were civilian cars builded before WWII but there was one ORIGINAL CANADIAN JEEP . On the windscreen of the girl , there was a pic before the retore job with it's original marking. Now she was exposed "as new".

I anybody able to explain the number on the classification bridge 5 . I believed that this number was for 15 CWT class.

Regards Serge

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Serge,

Thanks for the pictures of the Canadian jeep. Seems it is the same one as the one featured in the French book.

Originally Posted by serge

I anybody able to explain the number on the classification bridge 5 . I believed that this number was for 15 CWT class.

From http://milifax2003.tripod.com/bridgi...gs_part_1.html

"(a) Vehicles will be classified and marked according to the equivalent loads which they impose on a bridge. The classes are in multiplicity of one ton, from one ton upwards.
Vehicles can cross any bridge bearing a classification number with is the same or greater than its own classification. For example, a vehicle of class 12 can cross safely any bridge marked 12, 18 or 24. It cannot cross a bridge marked 5 or 9"

Although being much lighter, Jeeps and other light vehicles could be marked as a class 5 vehicle as they can cross a class 5 bridge (the lowest bridge class rating during WW2).

The attached pics show one jeep with a "2" on it's bridge classification sign, as when loaded it weighs 2 tons (more than 1, but less than or equal to 2), the other sports a "5" as it weighs no more than a class 5 bridge can carry!

A confusing subject, indeed. . .

Hanno