Canadian contract jeeps (was: CDLV 505 Jeep Serial numbers...)

[chris vickery]

Can anyone tell me the serial number range for Canadian contract MBs under CDLV242 or CDLV505?
When were these contracts filled and were they the only orders for jeeps by the Canadian gov't during WW2?
Also what kind of modifications were done on ours?

[Brian Gough]

Chris,

Check out Wheels & Tracks No. 1 for the article "Maple Leaf Jeeps" which covered Canada's US-built Jeeps and home-grown 10 cwt trailers.

The main differences from US Army Jeeps were: single headlight with guard, towing rings on front bumper and at the rear, and electric windshield wipers.

Some of the Canadian contracts for Jeeps (all before mid-1943) were:

CDLV - 241 500 units
CDLV - 242 1500 units (shipped overseas)
CDLV - 505 3000 units (half shipped overseas)
CDLV - 1696 4000 units (shipped overseas)
CDLV - 1801 1000 units (for Canadian delivery)
CDLV - 1802 1000 units (for overseas delivery)


Brian

[chris vickery]

Hi Brian
can I find a breakdown of serial numbers built within those specific contracts?

[wim sikkelbein]

Hello everybody,

By using the search function I found some threads on Canadian jeeps but I still have a question:

The first official contract CLDV241 and CLDV242 contained a total of 2000 Willys slat grille mb with Canadian modifications most notably: double electric windshield wipers and lifting rings on front and rear bumpers.

Now, for the following contract(s) were the same mods. used on the pressed grille Willys/Ford?

Wim

[chris vickery]

Wim, further to you query, I too am interested to know if these mods were carried on throughout contract CDLV505.

I have a MB built under CDLV505 which I am in the process of restoring and would like to make it authentic as built at the Willys factory.

Did all jeeps under CDLV505 have these mods. I am interested to know approxinmately how many were built under this contract number as I know mine is relatively close to the end, having serial number 177581.

[chris vickery]

With the gracious help of a fellow hobbyist, I am slowly getting to the bottom of the research on my Willys MB.

I am interested to know if anyone has info regarding jeeps between serial number 17073x and 170769, CDLV 505.

This range is for jeeps made on or around 8-31-42.

I would be most interested to have corresponding motor numbers, DOD and body tub serials if known.

It appears that my MB vehicle title may have been made up using the engine serial number and I would like to narrow this down if I can.

Many thanks, Chris

[wim sikkelbein]

from:

the standerdised wartime jeep 1941-45
by john farley

Canadian contract CDLV 505
chassis numbers:165243 to 170812
registration numbers:20220905 to 20226474
W.D. numbers:20220917 to 20237883

Wim

[Barry Hampton]

Wim, does the book you mention give the seriel numbers for the CDLV 242 contract?
Mine is a 242 contract and I would like to get the correct hood number.

[wim sikkelbein]

From the same book:
CDLV 241-242
chassis range approx.: 118697 to 120600
W.D. number cm 421xxxx to cm 423xxxx

sorry but this is all the information in the book

hope it helps

Wim

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have just two photos of Canadian Jeeps assembled in the UK: both GPWs, one from 1943 I think and the other 1944-5. I wish I could pin down which contracts they would have been supplied under. Oh! One was assembled in the CMD in Slough, the other in Liverpool. The latter works assembled British, Canadian and US Jeeps, which may have been unique?

[wim sikkelbein]

David, would you share those pictures with us?
I'm interested in their specifications: lifting rings, windshield wipers, spare gas can plate etc.

Thanks in advance

Wim

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...highlight=jeep

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...highlight=jeep

[wim sikkelbein]

Now I have photographic evidence that the "second contract" CDLV 505 did not have lifting rings but did carry the double electric windshield wipers. (at least for this particular one)

Now I can go and make my 1:35 scale model to Canadian standards

[wim sikkelbein]

David,

I used the search function before asking this question and came across the second link you provided, the problem for me with the photo you provided there is that the grill is covered in shade so I can't see if it is a slatt grill or pressed grill jeep (this being the easiest way to tell those versions apart)

Anyway the first link confirms my suspicions about the CDLV 505 jeeps.

Thanks

Wim

[chris vickery]

David, as far as I can ascertain, Canada's contract CDLV 241/242 as well as CDLV 505 were only built by Willys, not Ford.
Any GPWs in service may have been purchased outside of these C/D or S/M requirements.
I have learned that Canada did in fact use jeeps outside of these production demands, and that they were purely US spec.

[chris vickery]

Further to my last, I went back and checked Davids links to the pictures.
From what I see, the first link appears to have purely American style jeeps albeit with cmd numbers while the second link does show what appears to be a CDLV 505 contract jeep w/ camo.
CDLV 241/242 were slatgrills
CDLV 505 were stamped grills
Realizing that Canada used C/D numbers for vehicles supplied us, I am wondering now where and/or how US supplied jeeps were requisitioned? Were they assigned a C/D number or purchased through some other means? Not knowing exactly about the workings of the lend-lease agreement, I am unsure of how these jeeps would have been procurred into out inventory?
Anyone care to enlighten us?

[Barry Hampton]

for Wim

Thanks for info on 242 contract numbers. The only photo I can find of a slat grill Jeep that shows the hood number (not very clearly) is of a slat grill marked with Canadian maple leaf on red/black/red background and white 9 on black background over a white bar. The hood number appears to be CM1165501 - only the 6 is unclear.
This Jeep has the lifting rings and headlight guards.

Not sure if Jeep has square tank well (118600 or earlier).

From the G503 forum I was told 242 contract took in seriel 118601 (or 118697) to 120600.

Also seen photo of Slat grill in Italy with hood number CM 4231261

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Note the USPB No. xxxx on the crate at the CMD, Slough? These were therefore presumably US Lend-Lease units supplied direct for assembly here?

[chris vickery]

Not neccessarily David. I would think that even units built under CDLV contracts may have been shipped directly from the US instead of coming via Canada first. I do have a picture somewhere of jeeps arriving in the Kitchener Ontario Canada area during the war for assembly here.
I am not aware of whether the units shipped direct to Canada were destined for use here, or whether some were assembled from the CKD form and sent overseas assembled.
Out of 3000 units built on CDLV 505, 1500 did stay in Canada with the balance going to the UK.
The picture with the crate in the background with the USPB number has a CDLV 505 contract jeep in the foreground as near I can tell.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I assume that the USPB [United States Purchasing Board?] was in New York. My understanding was that FWD Auto Company Ltd in Kitchener assembled the Jeeps and then shipped them on, via Halifax for overseas. Perhaps I am mistaken?

However the CMD Jeep in Slough was presumably assembled from crates delivered as you say Chris, directly. Could it be a cash purchase or Defence Aid pre-Lend-Lease for overseas shipment? The crate is the only one to have any visible stencilling , "U.S.P.B. No 4978", and I would say dates to 1942 at latest now as the adjacent vehicle is a # 12 Cab Canadian F60H House body and the fact it is brand new dates it accordingly.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
I am not aware of whether the units shipped direct to Canada were destined for use here, or whether some were assembled from the CKD form and sent overseas assembled.

To set some things straight, CKD stands for Completely Knocked Down. As explained earlier, CKD should not be confused with trucks being encased, after first being 'knocked down' as much as considered practical. CKD was restricted to destinations where the manufacturers had proper assembly plants. CKD entailed the supply of parts which could not - or not economically - be produced locally, supplemented by parts which could. So basically CKD packs are an incomplete set of parts, which need locally sourced parts to complete the vehicle (as was done with the M38A1 after WW2 in Holland).

Originally posted by David_Hayward
My understanding was that FWD Auto Company Ltd in Kitchener assembled the Jeeps and then shipped them on, via Halifax for overseas. Perhaps I am mistaken?

As far as I can ascertain, during WW2 Jeeps were not sent overseas Completely Knocked Down. They were always fully built up at the Willys or Ford plant, test run and then partly knocked down (wheels, steering wheel, windscreen, etc.), crated up and shipped as SUP's, which is short for 'Single Unit Pack' (see pic below), or a pair of jeeps crated together as TUP's, which is short for 'Twin Unit Packs' - see Jeep In A Crate.

Therefore I cannot see a reason for an assembly plant in Canada to receive crated Jeeps, reassemble them and then ship them overseas, as preparation for shipment would entail doing the same operation in reverse order!

We should differentiate between:
1) Willys MB jeeps made to specific Canadian contracts with unique features (incl. paint).
2) Standard model Willys MB and the standard model Ford GPW purchased later by Canada.
3) Jeeps destined for domestic use in Canada, thus shipped from Willys/Ford to a destination in Canada to be reassembled - if they had been crated for shipment (how many were simply driven on a train?).
4) Jeeps destined for use overseas, thus crated and shipped from the Willys/Ford plant to a reassembly operation.

So far, it seems any combination of 1), 2) and 3), 4) seems possible.

Regards,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Well said Hanno! As mentioned before, General Motors Export Company probably invented the abbreviation "CKD" for the Tarrytowmn, NY then Blomfield, NJ Boxing Plant, crating operations around 1924.

We then have:
"SUP" or SINGLE UNIT PACKS
"PKD" or PARTLY KOCKED DOWN
"TUP" or TWIN UNIT PACKS
"FBU" or Fully Built-Up which was possibly crated, usually not so, complete vehicles shipped in the hold say.

In the book I am working on there is a photo of a crated vehicle shipped presumably back from North Africa to England, and the various stages of uncrating are shown. Similar to the Jeep photo posted.

I take it that the CMD, Slough, assembled Ford, possibly Willys, Jeeps, crated in the factory and then shipped by NYC to England?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I take it that the CMD, Slough, assembled Ford, possibly Willys, Jeeps, crated in the factory and then shipped by NYC to England?

Yes, I would say CMD reassembled both Willys and Ford Jeeps, manufactured either on Canadian or US contracts and partly knocked down for SUP'ing or TUP'ing at the factory, then shipped direct to the UK.

Here's a picture of Jeep reassembly "somewhere in England". I'm not saying this is CMD, but there are CMP's in the background! (source - click for large size scan)

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is from 1943 I think with Ford CMPs being worked on as well as Jeeps in the Lep Transport Ltd depot in Goole, Humberside. The only other "assembly" photo I have seen is the one in WHEELS & TRACKS from the operation in Manchester. A quick look suggests that the front right hand Jeep has what may be a Canadian Census Number?

Hanno, if Ken Smith is still with us, he should advise if that's the CMD, Slough or not, as he worked there from 1941 onwards for Citroen Cars Ltd.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The only other "assembly" photo I have seen is the one in WHEELS & TRACKS from the operation in Manchester.

From Colin Stevens' web page on Jeeps:
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/MB_CDLV_5...in_UK_WT_1.jpg

A quick look suggests that the front right hand Jeep has what may be a Canadian Census Number?

I can't see what you mean.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The extreme right Jeep has a "4" in front of its sequential #..not sure if it's a "44" or what.

[chris vickery]

Thank you Hanno on my perhaps, inappropriate wording (CKD) as it pertains to shipping of these vehicles.
I am learning as I go along here.

You have thus clarified that there is a difference between CKD and PKD ( partial knock down)

I will have a look for the photo of Jeeps arriving at the KitchenerFWD property. As I seem to recall from memory, I belive these ones were indeed shipped a a partial knock down and perhaps either one or two to a crate.

Now, as far as paint goes, I know this is another point that has be debated over and over again.
In my opinion, and for purposes of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, I would tend to think that the Willys plant would have used the same paint as US spec jeeps and not have changed over to accomodate a few CDLV spec ones here and there.
My reasoning on this is simple; from what I have found out during my recent research, the CDLV 505 contract was carried out during 4 distinct times, April, July Aug and Sept of 1942 with a few built during each of these months as manufacturing schedule permitted. Commitment appears to have been biased, of course, to US requirements first.
Having said this, one would wonder why a plant would set up to change paint lines over to accommodate small runs for a day or two at a time. This would entail painting the bodies separately in Canada's choice of colour followed by a respray of the entire assembly to homogenize all the colours on the completed unit, as surely the drivetrain and other components as supplied would have been in the US choice of colour.
Secondly, on the jeep that I have aquired, it appears that my original paint as found beneath the data plates is indeed close to US 33070.
As is stands, my 505 is going to receive paint in the standard US colour of the period.

[Mike Timoshyk]

My head hurts.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...highlight=jeep

has the thread with the 1944 or 1945 Canadian Jeep. Is it a Ford or Willys please? Abd likely CDLV? I have to caption a photo!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I found some data in the copies that Clive sent me:

CARS 5-CWT 4 X 4 Ford & Willys as @ 30th April 1945, 148 units landed in UK but not assembled; 40 being assembled; 3 built and ready for delivery; 8,226 built and delivered, and 178 delivered during April 1945, with 39 to "A.A.I.".

Hope that is of interest.