Tiny Tim generator

mudeng · #1 04-10-06, 14:06

The small , portable auxilliary generators used on allied vehicles.

I have come across one at the Cobbaton museum in North Devon. Unfortunately it had no exhaust pipe.

I believe the exhuast terminated in something similar to a watering can "rose" fitting.

Does any body have a photo of what the exhaust looked like?

I do have a number of photo's of the one in the museum.

Thanks.

George Moore

tankbarrell · #2 05-10-06, 08:38

Are you sure you mean a Tiny Tim? The charging set that used the flexible exhaust with a small silencer at the end had an inclined engine and is known as a Chorehorse. The Tiny Tim is specifically a Tank aux gen and has a vertical cylinder. Its exhaust is very long and wanders across the tank floor and out of the side.
I have originals of both.

Adrian

mudeng · #3 05-10-06, 10:04

Sorry, you are correct, I should have said chore horse.

George

tankbarrell · #4 05-10-06, 13:04

Yep, that's a Chorehorse. I thought I had a complete exhaust but I can only find the muffler.

Adrian

mudeng · #5 05-10-06, 18:20

Thanks Adrian,
I see from an earlier thread, the exhaust may have been flexible metal tubing, do you have a picture of the muffler?

I remember from an MG T series I once owned that it had a coiled metal exhaust from the manifold to the main exhaust. I think this may have been the same. If, as I remember, it rusted at an alarming rate, I doubt if many have survived.

George.

Richard Farrant · #6 05-10-06, 22:17

George,

From your photo the charging set looks like a post war BSA 300 watt, they were either 15 or 30 volts, (marked on the plate). I repaired a good number of these in REME workshops and from memory there was no silencer, just a flexy pipe about 5 or 6 foot long. ( I can recall the pipe coiled up and strapped to the frame)

It was fitted to the engine by a sleeve on the pipe slipping over the end of the exhaust and a large split pin on a chain secured it through a hole in sleeve and exhaust manifold stub.

To be correct, the name Chorehorse applied to the Canadian sets built by OMC during WW2.

Richard

mudeng · #7 05-10-06, 23:44

Thanks,
It's quite likely that it is a post war version, but from stowage digrams of carriers, it "appears" to be very similar to those shown, right down to the frame. It is possible I guess that war time patterns were continued into post war use.

I have enlarged the data plate as much as possible, but it gets very fuzzy, I can make out charging set WD serial ???????
300 watt
Plus what could be BSA.

From an earlier post, there were some shots of a radio cabin, with two sets mounted one on top of another. These definately show a flexible type of exhaust pipe.

I am definately of the opinion that surviving examples would lack the original exhaust.

Thanks again for the help.

George.

Mike K · #8 07-10-06, 05:22

hi George ,

Quite a few of the original C/horse exhaust pipes have survived here , in new condition .

Many WW2 sets were surplused unused here . Drew's, a truck yard in Melbourne , had tons of NOS Canadian chorehores spares . I wish I had bought more of it , when it was there , its all gone now .

The BSA variant is unknown of here , we got the Canadian Outboard and Marine version . There are two models shown in the manual , the British version is different , both types were made by Can. Out. Mar. during WW2 .

Many of the WW2 vintage sets here , were converted to 24 V, probably when the larkspur radios ( 24V ) came into service , late 50's . The army here used em right into the 70's , I would think .

Mike .

listerdiesel · #9 14-09-08, 13:54

Just joined the forum, this thread is what hooked me in!

The BSA variant is quite widespread, we came across one in Portland IN, USA at the gas engine and tractor show in August, and have just picked up a pair yesterday to play with.

Pictures of the Portland unit are here:

http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/P...tland08467.htm
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/P...tland08468.htm

That seems to carry a 1960 date tag after the 'BSA' on the label, I have a close-up shot of the label but didn't put it on the website.

We will be looking out for documentation over the next few months, and I'll get some pictures onto the website as we proceed with the restoration. Both look good enough to be repaired and got running.

Peter

David DeWeese · #10 18-09-08, 16:04

I have this unit that I picked up in Montana. From earlier responses in this thread, I guess this OMC of Canada generator would be considered a "Chorehorse". Tag shows it to be a 24-volt unit. Was this a WW2-era unit that was modified, or is this just post war?
The second one was in the shed with the one I have here, but was too heavy for me to pick up, so I guess it got scrapped along with everthing else.
Looking at the photo of the second one, I now see there was also what appears to be a flexible exhaust pipe laying to the left of the unit that I should have picked up also!

cletrac (RIP) · #11 18-09-08, 18:31

Here's a page out of the manual. The manual has several variants with minor differences.

David DeWeese · #12 21-09-08, 06:22

Thanks David for the photo and the reply!
Got the OMC generator running today. Had a stuck valve, but worked it loose and got it to fire and run.
Do you think this a WW2-era generator that was modified for post-war use, or was it built post war? Would like to see more of your manual!
Thanks, David

David Dunlop · #13 21-09-08, 22:21

The chorehorse was built in 6, 12 and 24 volt versions over quite a few decades. There were commercial units built for the rural farm electrification programs in the Canadian prairies in 6 and 12 volt versions as well. These were identical in appearance to the military equivalents, but typically minus the metal guard assembly.

After the war, the Canadian military kept 12 volt radio systems in operation well into the 1960's, the last of it surplused out by 1970. At the same time, they were gradually introducing a vastly smaller quantity of vehicles and signals equipment based on 24 volt systems from the early 1950's onward.

It was probably just as cost effective to order a small quantity of new 24 volt units than have the older equipment reworked.

David

David DeWeese · #14 22-09-08, 03:37

Hello David,
Thank you for the great information on the generator!
The reason I was asking about if it might have been reworked is that when I took the oil bath air breather off to prime it for starting, the original color underneath was a dark chocolate-brown. Resembled what I have seen referred to as "DTB"? There is also a small tag on the unit which reads
"Mod 1".
Still trying to learn about this stuff as my present knowlege wouldn't fill a thimble!
Thanks again, David

Rob Beale · #15 22-09-08, 08:59

I have seen similar units labelled "Iron Horse 4 cycle" wiith 300W output.

Can anyone tell me more: were these used by the military? Without a fram does that make them likely civilian?

What should I look for?

thanks in advance
Rob

David Dunlop · #16 22-09-08, 17:07

Rob. Chorehorses are a bit like CMPs. At first glance at a distance they all look the same. Then on closer inspection, you start to notice subtle differences that identify some were Fords, some were Chevrolet, a few were GMC and a whole bunch more were even built at Holden in Australian...and then you develop an overwhelming urge to try and own one example of every type ever made and wonder why your neighbours start moving away...

The actual construction differences between manufacturers of the chorehorse were quite subtle since they all had to comply with the same set of military design specifications. If the data plate is missing from the set, you are pretty much guessing who built it, as the differences would be at the level of nuts and bolts, or the look of the meter. The guard frame was basically an option item and cannot really be considered definitive for identifying a 'military' or 'civilian' chorehorse. I have copies of both the military and civilian publications and the photos would be freely interchangeable between the two publications.

In military use, the chorehorse served two basic functions: it could be a field portable set, or a hard mounted set in a vehicle. Hard mounted in a vehicle, it would likely be installed and operated within some form of generator compartment, safely separated from the operators, or any careless Sargents wandering around, so the guard would not be installed. If the set was to be field portable, the guard would have been supplied as it served several purposes. It made the generator easy to carry, it provided some protection from dry vegetation coming up against it and starting a brush fire, and it helped prevent the operators from getting a nasty shock, burn or mangled fingers from spinning parts.

As with anything in the military, in spite of these two clearly distinct functions, the laws of supply and demand take over sooner or later and one would end up using whatever units were available.

About 40 years back, there was a very large surplus company here in town that had several dozen Chev 15-cwt Wireless Trucks in their yard. The Wireless Boxes were all built by Wilson Truck Body and they all came equipped with a standard wiring layout that would allow for two distinct generator installations in the Generator Compartment. The compartment held two generators, A lower one was hard mounted to the floor of the compartment and would not have a guard. It would either be a DC Chorehorse or a much larger Onan AC/DC generator (the actual model number escapes me at the moment, but it's output was 12 V DC and 110V AC). There was a large, round single AC receptacle mounted on the front wall of the Wireless Box, just to the right of the radio operator's table.

On the floor of the Generator Compartment to the left of the lower generator, there was a section of galvanized plumbing pipe sticking up with a Y-adaptor on top. Underneath the box, the pipe had a 90 degree elbow on it leading into a muffler that pointed to the right side of the vehicle. The Y-adaptor of the top of the pipe was asymmetrical in that the two parts of the 'Y' were different diameters and had a square head plug fitting screwed into it.

If the lower generator was a chorehorse, it's exhaust pipe was connected to the smaller part of the 'Y' and the larger pipe remained capped. If the lower generator was the Onan unit, it was connected to the larger part of the 'Y' and the smaller pipe remained capped.

About halfway up the Generator Compartment, there was a set of side rails that an angle iron frame could slide in and out on, rather like an oven rack. It was held in place on the left side by a large cotter pin on a brass chain attached to the side rail. The pin could be passed though a hole in the side rail and the frame assembly. This frame held a second chorehorse equipped with a guard frame. It was this unit that was the field portable one. Based on the dozens of vehicles I was able to inspect at the surplus yard here in Winnipeg, it appeared the wireless crews could make this upper chorehorse, portable in two ways. Some of them were set up with their flexible exhaust pipes connected to the smaller part of the plumbing Y in the floor, and their output terminals connected to the terminal strip inside the Generator compartment. In other vehicles, the upper chorehorse was not connected to the terminal strip and the flex exhaust pipe was not connected to the Y in the floor. These units would be a lot faster to move into field, but the wireless crew would lose the ability to bring it on line quickly if anything went wrong with the lower generator in the vehicle. There were a bank of three switches (standard household toggle light stitches) on the outside left of the Generator Conpartment facing the front of the Wireless Box that the operators could use to start the generators. These switches opened 12 V circuits that backfed current from the batteries to the generator turning it into a starting motor for the gas engine. Cannot remember what the third switch was for at the moment.

At the top of the Generator Compartment was a shelf where the Tool boxes, spare parts etc for the generators were stowed.

With regards to paint for chorehorses, I have seen both green and No. 2 Brown used on military units. The green can either be one of the two Canadian Military wartime greens, or the US Army green, depending on where the manufacturer was located. The North American manufacturers I am aware of for certain were OMC, Johnson and Onan. There was also another company big into logging industry chainsaws prior to the war that was also awarded a contract. I want to say "Poulin" but don't quote me on that for certain. BSA built them in England and there must have been other companies about as well.

As for the civilian versions, a customer could find them available in any colour they wanted, as long as it was either Commercial Green, Commercial Blue or Commercial Black. These were full gloss paints and show up readily when you start taking the set apart.

At this point I have probably written more than you cared to read, and my fingers are starting to cramp up, so I shall sign off and make myself a pot of tea!

Best regards,

David

Rob Beale · #17 22-09-08, 21:49

The whole field of generators and radios has been a complete mystery to me so I stayed well away! I have used AN/PRC 77 sets, but that is the limit for me.

Then I chanced on a Radio Shack body for a NZ C8AX and the bug bit...
so far I have most of the NZ built ZC1 MkII radio set and accessories to kit it out. This radio was locally designed and built and was tested in Canada and found to be better than the No19 to operate.

I have followed this thread as the Radio Shack has a locker for the generator, and obviously it needs to be filled! Last weekend I drove 5 hours each way to measure up the interior furniture of an original refurbished Radio Shack, so progress is being made.

Once again thank you for your most helpful description. I will inspect the Iron Horse set this afternoon.

Rob

David Dunlop · #18 24-09-08, 04:45

I am not familiar with how your C8AX would be kitted out, Rob, in so far as the Generator Compartment/Locker goes, but thought I would pass along an observation from the Canadian CMP's, for what it's worth.

If you cannot spot an obvious similarity to any holes in the floor of the Locker and the mounting holes on your generator, try making a full scale tracing of the Generator footprint and bolt holes, and one of the hole pattern on the floor.

If you cannot get a match between the two tracings, two things are possible: (a) a different generator might have been used, or (b) there was some type of mounting plate that went between the generator assembly and the floor of the locker. I have seen both situations over here with CMP's and M-Series vehicles. Some went straight to the vehicle floor and some went to a mounting plate which in turn went to the floor. It can make for a lot of head scratching!

Also, if you have the tracings available, you will find them most useful and easier to take about with you, should you have to head off somewhere to check out possible parts etc.

By the way, can you post some pix of the ZC 1 MKII? It sounds like an interesting rig.

Best regards,

David

Rob Beale · #19 24-09-08, 08:14

A friend sent me this link recently which gives a good description of the ZC1. (It seems similar to the Royal Sigs site's treatment of the No19.)

<http://www.zc1-radioclub.wellington.net.nz/index.htm>

I see similarities to the CMP and British Radio Boxes described recently on MLU, but with some simplifications I think, on the local pattern product.

I don't yet know if the vehicles were used in Guadalcanal and the Solomons campaign, but am sure they went to Korea with the Artillery. The ZC1 MkI radio set was used operationally in the Solomons

Mine is a replica built many years ago, and I got it to complete the set of NZ C8AX variants: the Ambulance, Radio Shack and GS versions! I identify with your earlier comment about wanting the full set!!!

As far as the generator set goes, I will use the Iron Horse model, and spray it green, until I find an original unit. I will screw it down to the deck, assuming the locker door is left open when running.

And again, thanks for your helpful advice David

Rob

ps no relationship with the designers of the ZC1 : Collier and Beale