chev portee

[Dick Wheat]

HI, could any one tell me the units that used the portees converted in Britian and did they have a part to play in the europe campain.This is of intrest to me as i would like put the correct markings on my portee. Thanks Dick Wheat

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Dick,

As far as I know the Chevrolet CMP Portees were only used in North Africa. Wheels & Tracks magazine features a picture of one converted into a gun tractor in use in Italy.

See http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~Sbarnes/portee/chev.html for some pictures of surviving Chev Portees.

Can you show us a picture of yours?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Pete Ashby]

Glad to see you found your way here Dick

Chaps

Dick has been working for a number of years on this project and he could do with some help anything you have to offer I know will be well received.

Dick if you have trouble posting pictures onto the forum you can e-mail them to me and I'll do it for you.

Hanno your link wouldn’t fire up for me ?

Didn’t we do Portees to death a few years ago on the old forum ?come on Mcspool demonstrate your encyclopaedic memory and magic up the thread for Dick

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The answer I come up with is that:

1. 2-Pounder Portees:

a) Census Numbers L 4594498 to 4595497 were issued as domestic theatre numbers for those 30-cwt A/tank Portees delivered under Contract or Demand Supply-Mechanical 2028. There is an IWM official photo of one in the Kidbrooke Ministry of Supply series in the snow, KID 3928, probably taken winter 1941. So, in theory, and going by the 'X2' destination export code on the known survivors, they were intended for UK assembly: by LEP Transport Ltd in Chiswick, West London. I can imagine that Hanno is correct and almost all were then shipped out to the Mid-East but carrying their original Census Numbers.

b) There were also a large number, possibly more than the UK deliveries, delivered direct to I would say Alexandria* and assembled there.

E.g.: L 4623008, L 4623053, L 4623061, L 4623452, L 4623541, plus the known Portees issued to the AIF:
L4516072 L14418712 L4516466 L4514359 L4516492 L4413524 L4514782 L4514865 L4514809 L4514803 L4412964 L4412889 L4514860 L4412893 25/07/1941 L4516467

Of those above a good proportion were as mentioned issued to the AIF, and along with those issued to the NZEF and Indian Army (if any) were sold in June? 1942 in a deal between the UK and the respective Commonwealth Governments that as part of a wider deal saw those Portees still extant transferred to the Forces using them having been loaned them initially. Further, 219 I believe Chevrolets and Morris-Commercial equivalents, were shipped out to NZ in 1944?, and then used as Portees or converted to G/S trucks.

c) In late 1943 I think it was Morris Commercial Cars in Birmingham had a contract to rebuild surviving Morris-Commercial Portees to 17-Pounder Gun Tractors, both normal type and Airportable, as well as the Predictors, and some GTs. Somebody, and I originally guessed General Motors Ltd in Bamber Bridge, near Preston, had a contract to rebuild Chevrolet Portees to 17-Pounder tractors, e.g. H 4594682 which is the one in the W & T photo in Italy. I believe but have no evidence that some/the remainder were rebuilt as G.S trucks. That said, it makes no sense to me now that GM Ltd would have had these Portees back, and then rebuilt them and shipped them to Italy. It makes more sense to me that that were rebuilt in the leased *GM Near East Ltd plant in Alexandria and then sent to Italy. If anyone has any evidence of any Portees surviving to the end of the war in British service as G/S Lorries I should say, then I would be very grateful.

2. 6-Pounder Portees:

L 5216042 to 5216554 was allocated for the C60L 6-Pounder Portees delivered under S/M 2613 in 1942. I have no evidence that they were ever used anywhere...perhaps someone knows for definite? They must have had a short life as they were quickly officially obsolete, and then rebuilt (and I am certain this time that it was GM Ltd in Bamber Bridge) to 3-ton G/S trucks with a modified # 43 cab, e.g. L 5216493 in IWM photo KID 4052 which is unquestionably in England

[Pete Ashby]

Spot on David

I was talking to Dick this week and he said his C15A has been converted for the 17 pounder role with the winch conversion

Anybody have any pictures please ?

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is my total list of all known to me of 30-cwt 2-Pounder Portees or suspected Portees:

1844013289 ENGINE # XR3,709,130
1844012961[PORTEE?]
1844031352 ENGINE # XR 3,759,384
1844031433 ENGINE # XR3,757,180 S/M 2028
1844031565 [PORTEE?]
1844031586 [PORTEE?]
1844031825 ENGINE NUMBER XR3,742,886 S/M 2028 # L4595318 NOVEMBER 21 1941
1844031840 W.D. # L4594778 ENGINE # XR3,742,962 S/M 2028
1844031842 [PORTEE?]
1844032663 ENGINE # XR3,757,585

Note the two known Census Numbers.

I have however a considerably larger list of C-GT chassis from old records say which may have included some Portees as the 30-cwt chassis used the same basic chassis as the 8440 C-GT of course, and so data plates would not differentiate.

Dick, is there a data plate on your truck please? I take it now that it is a C15A that has been converted to a 17-Pounder role? Or am I missing something? In the event of the former this is extremely interesting! I have no known information on that conversion, and whilst I am immediately considering a Mid-East theatre conversion, query why the truck is now in the UK? Unless it went up to Italy and thence back to the UK post-war?

If you have any problem with posting pix contact Pete, or myself please!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On the subject of 15-cwt conversions, I know of "TRUCK 15 CWT. 4 X 2 AA (20 M.M.) which according to my notes "ORIGINALLY HAD A VAN-6 BODY AND WAS ONE OF 2,000 C.15 AND F.15 TRUCKS CONVERTED BY DENNIS MOTORS LIMITED, GUILDFORD, SURREY TO 20-M.M. A.A. GUN PLATFORM WITH VAUXHALL MOTORS LIMITED MANUFACTURED GUN CARRIAGE-CUM-MOUNT".

Any others?

[Dick Wheat]

HiDavid, this is amodel 84-40X2 serial no 1844031825 engine no3742886 poss L4595318 fitted with power winch. Having spoken to Pete today about the converted portee photo in Military Vehicles OF World War 2, this is appears to be in european camouflarge. I like you had douts about these vehicles being brought to England and sent back when space on ships was at a premium. Many thanks for reply Cheers Dick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks mate! I obviously have this one down already. Have you any photos please?

I can only imagine that a 17-Pounder rebuild would end its career in northern Europe and then could feasibly have been shipped back. I know British companies rebuilt GTs post-war into trucks, etc., and tractors.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Glad to see you found your way here Dick

Chaps

Dick has been working for a number of years on this project and he could do with some help anything you have to offer I know will be well received.

Welcome here, Dick!

Hanno your link wouldn’t fire up for me ?

Your brower might be set to suspect the computer code used to activate the link, so you probably have to click twice to get to links like http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~Sbarnes/portee/chev3.html

Didn’t we do Portees to death a few years ago on the old forum ?come on Mcspool demonstrate your encyclopaedic memory and magic up the thread for Dick

I'll see what I can come up with (thanks for giving me an hour's work, pal! )

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I would like to establish whether any British Portees, i.e. Chevrolet 2-Pdr lorries, were ever converted to G/S Trucks as well as 17-Pdr Tractors!

[Dick Wheat]

Hi lads just reread the w/tracks write up which states the rebuild tractors did not have winch, if this is correct how did they recover the 17PDR gun which weighed 6,500LB. Any thoughts. cheers Dick

[Pete Ashby]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Your brower might be set to suspect the computer code used to activate the link, so you probably have to click twice to get to links like http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~Sbarnes/portee/chev3.html

Thanks Hanno works fine now, you see those ramps ? I've got a pair of those in my workshop they came of a 30cwt 13 cab portee

Pete

[Dick Wheat]

Hi David, The portee on page 96 in the Military Vehicles of WW2 by John Church could possibly be the Gs version.After enlarging the photo, there are no ramps showing above the canvas or on the base hinges. The sides around the wheel arch are enclosed not showing any frame work. One of the amo boxes has been removed and replaced petrol and oil can holders, no winch handle or shaft from the winch are showing. The picture does not show any cable rollers on the front bumper, the ends of which are painted white. There is only one head light with a blackout cover. The camo looks european This conversion retains the lorry number L4594778 not the H cheers Dick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

..Dick. It makes sense to me that GM Ltd converted obsolete, but potentially useful, 30-cwt Portees into G/S trucks just as they did with the 6-Pounder Portees.

[Pete Ashby]

Dick has asked me to post this picture for him.

it is out of Military vehicles of WW11 by John Church with no credits attached.

Pete

[Pete Ashby]

Dick

just a thought, does your Portee have a Ford bonnet i.e. does it have the pressing for the rad cap ? I could convince myself that the picture I have posted for you has it.

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

...the 17-Pounder MCC Portee rebuilds! When I can get a copy of the 6-Pounder Portee rebuild up you can compare. Tghis is an official shot ex-Oshawa Plant:

[Pete Ashby]

Dick

I think I have identified the style of the camouflage pattern in the photo I've posted for you.

I think it's "Foliage Pattern" from Pamphlet No 46 issued 27th November 1941

Pete

[Dick Wheat]

Hi Pete, mine has a pressing, thanks for posting the photo .1941? this puts a twist on things as this does not look like a portee. any thoughts. Dick

[Pete Ashby]

Dick

My C15A 12 cab also has the Ford bonnet factory fitted as does my 12 cab LAA several other Chevs that I know of also have this feature.

It would appear that all the trucks fall into a narrow time band around late spring early summer 1941, before and after this date they have the standard flat topped Chev bonnet.

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The original intention was that Ford was to supply all cabs...but by 1941 this was deemed impractical.

[mike mckinley]

hi gents

attached is a pic from the design record on the 6lbr portee.
cheers!!
mike

[Pete Ashby]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The original intention was that Ford was to supply all cabs...but by 1941 this was deemed impractical.

Now that's interesting David any idea when in 1941 the decision was made ?

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I believe that it would have been probably by the meeting that Dr Gregg mentions was held in December 1940 that settled on the new # 13 Cab. I believe that details of that meeting were sent on the 30th December 1940 to Ottawa.

I have studied the DND papers over some years and come to the conclusion that there were initially CKD shipments: 175 or 174 CKD + 1 fully built-up of say C15, F15, etc. and that by August 1940 Oshawa, and thus Windsor, had gone over to SKD production. Dr Gregg confirms that it was initially proposed that [presumably following on from the division of engineering design work], Ford would produce cabs, engines and powertrains [gearboxes, etc.], whilst GM would be responsible for chassis, axles and some bodies, in order to produce a standardised vehicle. We know from McKinnon Industries records that that company were requested by the DND to produce 4-wheel drive production vehicles.

We know that the CKD system was swiftly abandoned, because it was found that there were so many mismatches in delivered crates. Also, Oshawa had to report to Southampton on problems with cabs which had been found, presumably on those supplied as compoents by Fords. Further, on 8 August 1940, Lt. E.D. James in WO Carr’s department noted that Fords supplied 100% of their spare parts and those supplied to GM, and vice versa. This could lead to severe shortfalls and complications, and so he recommended that the lots of 100 units should be complete with all spare parts: in the case of Fords, all parts needed for those Fords and in the case of GM, all parts necessary for Chevrolets even though the parts were manufactured by the other Company. I believe, and may be wrong, that this was formalisied by the December 1940 meeting and then it took time for components to be sent through the system and used up. If you see that the earliest British contracts for CMPs were placed in June/July 1940, production commenced early September, and assembly commenced by January 1941, you can get some idea of the timescale. The Portees and C-GTs were covered by S/M 2028 and 2020/2028 respectively. We believe that 2029 was placed 21st August 1941, and this fits in with Novermber 1941 production dates on known Portees and C-GTs.

The dates of course coincide with the suggested '1941' as previously mentioned. This was of course just before the # 13 Cab came in at # 001524 which was in fact possibly the time that C8 production ended in late 1941. I don't know what the Ford cut-off was. To me it makes sense to use up cab parts for the # 12 cabs as the # 13 had been sanctioned months previously.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Three more portee photos - of varying quality.

[Dick Wheat]

Hi Here is some of the history of my portee, it was purchased by Kevin Wheatcroft on the 12 8 78 from Mallory service station (which has now gone).I have a very poor photo, front only of the vehicle at time of purchase in a sad state. From receipts I have, the engine was rebuilt and a new back made. This was a bit like a GS back but did not fit when correct tanks were put in place. From the small amount of information i have managed to collect over the last four years I changed it in length and hight. There is an old plate on this back, Contract no 23/s3714 there are no more numbers, the other spaces are not filled in. Beverly museum informed me that it is a 1943 replacement plate.which would fit with the conversion date, but did it come from this vehicle?, It might be that Kevin has more photos or might remember about the plate, but this is along time ago and he sold it in 1991, part built to a gent in Derbyshire, who did nothing with it. I purchased it about four years ago. I have no idea how to get in touch with Kevin, does any one know him or how to get in touch with him. Will place photos when more complete. cheers Dick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I can well envisage that the plate is correct and Contract no 23/S.3714 was the Ministry of Supply contract to rebuild the lorries. This fits in with the likely timescale, and no doubt there was an associated contract to convert some into 17-Pounder FATs.

Any rebuild should have something like "GMC/-" on a plate to confirm rebuild by General Motors, Cleckheaton but this may have only been applied to engines:

Under the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Regulations, a code was stamped on all reconditioned engines so that any defective units or assemblies could be traced to their source. A code reference number consisting of symbols, indicating the repairer, followed by numerals indicating the month and year of overhaul.

Thank you for enabling me to write some new history!

[Pete Ashby]

Dick

click on this link it is an early post where your truck is being discussed

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ghlight=portee

Pete

[Dick Wheat]

Pete I have built the back to take the frame that is the same as the portee. If you take the sizes from the frame the back has to to be a given hight and lengh because of the frame over the cab. Also there is aframe fits between the tanks allowing you to step from the cab to the back if the hight of the frame is not correct you cannot get through. There has to be some give and take on the fixings but I have tried to retain the original look.Dick