Truck identification

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On the contrary in the book of Vanderveen the author stated that the Morris Commercial C8/AT was a C8/MG modified to gun tractor.

This is a subject that can really confuse and yet the answers are now to hand. I stand to correction, and am sure I will be, but basically the Morris-Commercial C.S.8T 15-cwt pick-up was built in three early 4 x 2 versions, and various bodies were designed for the basic chassis including cavalry portee. Subsequently Morris Commercial Cars used Continental technology as a basis for their short-lived 'Q' for 'Quad' 4 x 4 system, with front or rear engines, using shafts to each wheel. These were not accepted by the War Department for series production and so MCC developed a 4 x 4 version by 1938 of the C.S.8T as a field artillery tractor, two being built, which were in fact the C.S.8T/FWD to Contract V.3215 of 9 February 1938.

If I may then cheat and quote from my own notes:

It is pertinent here to explain that various companies had produced to WD order 4 x 4 armoured cars and artillery tractors that were linked: Guy Motors Limited of Wolverhampton with their Quad-Ant and ‘wheeled light tank’ [‘w.l.t..’] which was later called the 'Armoured Car'; Rootes group-owned Karrier with their KT4 artillery tractors and Humber armoured cars Mks 1 to IV that were the successors to the Guy w.l.t., Morris Commercial Cars Limited of Birmingham with their Q Armoured Car and QW [for ‘Winch’] gun tractors, and Alvis-Straussler. The Morris-Commercial QW and first appeared in 1938 in two versions: front-engined for FAT [QW] and rear-engined [Q] for armoured vehicles; the WD acquired 16 Q-series vehicles under Contract V.3246. These 4 x 4 chassis owed and shared nothing or very little with the 15-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks such as the MCC C.S.8 . Guy Motors had in 1937/8 used components from the w.l.t. to create the lead Quad-Ant and started production of their Tractor that could tow the 25-pounder, and MCC followed on behind. The WD specified four-wheel, all-wheel drive with weather-protected seating for the six-man crew detachment plus stowage for ammunition and battery stores. On the sloping back panel it would carry either a spare gun wheel or the gun-firing platform. The tractor would also tow a limber as well as the gun. Guy had a small production capacity and so Morris Commercial Cars Limited in Adderley Park, Birmingham were approached to put a very similar tractor in production, and this was later followed by Karrier. Just ten Morris-Commercial QW tractors were built plus 6 rear-engined Q chassis for armoured cars that had not compared well with Guy’s w.l.t. However, a cart-sprung conventional type with rigid axles was approved for production as the Morris-Commercial C.8/FWD FAT and production commenced in 1939 under contract V.3539 on 29 November 1939. This was followed by another contract V.3576 on 3 January 1940. The MCC C.8/FWD FATs used a 4-cylinder side valve 3519 c.c. 24.8 h.p. unit. The Morris Q series on the other hand used 26.8 h.p. 6-cylinder 3,745 c.c. o.h.v. engines producing 97 b.h.p., comparable in capacity and output with the Chevrolet 6-cylinder. The Guy ‘Quad Ant’ was ordered to Contact V.3372 in September 1939, and equipped with Meadows 4ELA engines.

The two prototype C.S.8/FWD tractors differed substantially from the production MCC tractors but they were the direct ancestors. Note the different designations as the prototypes [C.S.8/FWD] used a 6-cylinder engine, whereas the production FAT C.8/FWD etc. had a 4-cylinder engine.

Another derivative of the CS.8 4 x 2 was the C8/MG Mobile Gun followed by the C8/AT 2-pounder gun portee. The former had three-piece flat mudguards, whereas the FATs had round mudguards. The /MG and /AT models became obsolete in British service by 1943 and although a large number were sold to New Zealand, many were rebuilt along with the basically similar C.8/P Predictor trucks to C.8/AT Mark III 17-pounder tractors or the airportable version, by MCC at Adderley Park, Birmingham.

The real answer was therefore that the C.S.8T formed the loose basis for derivative 4 x 4 chassis, with the /MG and /AT portees using standard WD-design bodies of which detailed drawings were sent to Canada. Guy designed their Quad-Ant from the 15-cwt 4 x 2 Ant, the C.S.8T rival, and because Guy Motors could not cope with the WD demand for FATs MCC was contracted to build a very similar outline version which was loosely based on the C.S.8T through the wooden-bodied prototype C.8/FWD. In my opinion it was really a case of multiple divergent evolution, and not a strict sequential model development.

As I said, Canada received and binned the pre-war WD 2-pounder drawings. A short time later the WD shipped a MCC C.8/FWD and a Guy Quad-Ant to Ottawa with detailed drawings representing the 4 x 4 FAT design. These were then taken up by GM of Canada with Ford of Canada, and begat the C-GT and then the F-GT. Note I believe that it was this way round! However the 2-pounder drawings were pulled out of the bin and subsequently the DND agreed to a request for a British order for 2-pounder portees and GM of Canada accepted the contract and adapted their C-GT chassis to take a copy of the WD body with a modified #12 open cab which became the # 42 cab. The Portee chassis were interspersed with C-GT chassis on the line in batches though I believe that they lacked the C-GT winch? Comparing serial numbers shows no difference: they had the same model number. It is just possible that Oshawa even converted built-up C-GTchassis on the line. When the Chevrolet 2-pounder portees became obsolete, those not sold to New Zealand were rebuilt, probably by GM Limited in England, to 17-pounder A/T tractors whereas the later # 43 cab C60L 6-pounder portees were rebuilt as G/S trucks with a modified # 43 cab.

This thread has some more information:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...rriscommercial