Flying

[Keith Webb]

Well, I know most of you people aren't interested in anything other than trucks, but I've been having a ball this week filming everything from a Meteor to a Spitfire. Yesterday went flying in a Cessna 02, a FAC Vietnam vet aircraft to see how suitable it is to shoot the pair of A37s air to air. Too windy to do it today but hopefully there will be some good weather this weekend so I can do ait to air with things like the Spitfire and Canberra, not to mention the Vampire and Wirraway...




More pics

[DaveCox]

Luv that shot of the Spit against the sunset Keith - can I have your permission to download it and use it as a desktop?

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by DaveCox
Luv that shot of the Spit against the sunset Keith - can I have your permission to download it and use it as a desktop?

Sure thing, Dave
This is an interesting Spitfire - the only one flying in Australia and the lowest time flying Spitfire in the world with something like 320 hours on the airframe. It's a Mk VIII.
It will be flying this Saturday and Sunday at Temora and they fly it every month.
I've been filming it and it's an awesome machine indeed.

[DaveCox]

Thanks Keith - I love spits - the most beautiful thing ever made of metal - looks just as good on a 17" screen!

That's an AMAZING photo Keith. Gorgeous I don't know planes OR photography but that sunset with the ball-of-fire beneath the plane looks like it's a fireball-of-power-from-the-belly-ready-for-victory ... too cool

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Vets_Dottir
That's an AMAZING photo Keith. Gorgeous I don't know planes OR photography but that sunset with the ball-of-fire beneath the plane looks like it's a fireball-of-power-from-the-belly-ready-for-victory ... too cool

Thanks for your kind words, Carman
I sat in it the other day and had a play with the controls... in a couple of weeks I'll be back there filming it from the air...

Keith

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Thanks for your kind words, Carman
I sat in it the other day and had a play with the controls... in a couple of weeks I'll be back there filming it from the air...

Keith

You guys all don't know how ENVIOUS I am.... the things you all get to do and the amazing toys you get to play with. My adventurous spirit has to have these expeiences vicariously ... armchair travelling. Which is pretty good too,but the real thing would be so amazing.

I know you'll really get-off on your flight Enjoy...the view andpicture taking ...Carman

[Dave Downs (LT Ducky)]

Kieth Webb;

I'm brand new to this forum, and have just started to read through the posts, and was taken by your subject of 'FLYING, as I am a pilot (civilian) and have an interest in military aircraft. The picture of the Spitfire is magnificent, but it was the mention of the A-37's that really caught my eye. I was a TACP (Tactical Air Control Party, Enlisted) with the Pennsylvania Air National Guard back in the late 1980's, and we flew the OA-37B, and was fortunate enough to get an ride in one and actually fly it for about 20 minutes.

As there were no follow-up pictures, I assume that the weather did not permit your planned air-to-air work. I understand there are several A-37's in civilian hands in Australia (well, at least 2!); do you have any history on them? Did the Australian Air Force fly them? I know they are still active in South America. I'm not sure if any are flying in the US, but I did see a civilian T-37 2 weeks ago at an airshow.

I've included a picture of an OA-37B that I took at a gunnery range years ago, hope it is not too big (I'm new at posting picures).

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Hiya Ducks! Good to see you here! Yell if you have any questions, and feel free to post or reply to anything, anytime.

Geoff

PS: Do you like your new user title?

[Dave Downs (LT Ducky)]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
PS: Do you like your new user title?

I was trying to start a new life..............

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Hehehehe... gotcha... go into your USER CP top right, and get the PM I just sent you...

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Dave Downs (LT Ducky)
Kieth Webb;

I'm brand new to this forum, and have just started to read through the posts, and was taken by your subject of 'FLYING, as I am a pilot (civilian) and have an interest in military aircraft. The picture of the Spitfire is magnificent, but it was the mention of the A-37's that really caught my eye. I was a TACP (Tactical Air Control Party, Enlisted) with the Pennsylvania Air National Guard back in the late 1980's, and we flew the OA-37B, and was fortunate enough to get an ride in one and actually fly it for about 20 minutes.

As there were no follow-up pictures, I assume that the weather did not permit your planned air-to-air work. I understand there are several A-37's in civilian hands in Australia (well, at least 2!); do you have any history on them? Did the Australian Air Force fly them? I know they are still active in South America. I'm not sure if any are flying in the US, but I did see a civilian T-37 2 weeks ago at an airshow.

I've included a picture of an OA-37B that I took at a gunnery range years ago, hope it is not too big (I'm new at posting picures).

Hi Dave
Awesome shot of the A37!
I've forwarded this to the Temora Aviation Museum people - they can tell the story of these birds in Australia - and it's a good one! They're all combat veterans and a fabulous sight to see in our skies.
I did shoot some air-to-air of both a single with smoke generators and the pair but this is on digital betacam, a videotape format - I'll do some frame grabs to post soo. I also shot the Vampire the same way - through the open storm window of the Cessna 02.

[Keith Webb]

David, here's a photo of one of the Temora Aviation Museum's A37B Dragonflies taken by Glenn Aldeton at the Tyabb airshow in 2003.

[Dave Downs (LT Ducky)]

Keith;

Thanks for the compliment on the picture - actually getting head-on shots with military pilots is rather easy. No air-show regulations to worry about, so you just tell the pilot where you are and that you have a camera.......

As I was working as a TACP, we were in radio contact or monitoring, so our locations were always known. Most of my pictures were taken in a hurry, so most don't have much detail.

On the A-37, that is an interesting shot....a top view from the rear with flaps down....a low pass with a pull-up???

Also, I see US insignia on the top of the left wing...were these planes Vietnam 'vets'?

I'll add one more picture (I've got thousands... ) of my favorite jet fighter, caught on a approach to a gunnery run. It was moving quick, 450-500 mph.

......ahh for the 'good old days'....

[Keith Webb]

Love it...
I have the privilege of working closely with these people - next week will be fun as we do more air-to-air... I can ask them to do almost anything too - within reason.
The Dragonflies (as with the 01 and 02) are all genuine Vietnam vet aircraft, which is awesome.
These (they have 2 A37Bs) were part of the 254 supplied to the VNAF during the Vietnam war. At the war's end 95 surviving A37s were captured and flown by the People's Air Force.
In 1989 10 of these aircraft were brought to Australia by Col Pay and restored.

Here's a shot of me in the T28 taken after a filming sortie. My wife says I look like a pumpkin.

Pic by Rob Fox

[Keith Webb]

Here we are at rotation...


Pic by Glenn Aldeton

[Dave Downs (LT Ducky)]

Keith, you know the T-28 saw combat in Vietnam and Laos?

At the risk of turning this topic into 'Keith and Dave's I-flew-in-a-neater-airplane-than-you-did' , here's another picture. (pic by Ron Henry)

I'm in the front seat.

There is a rather sad story attached to this aircraft. The picture was taken at 'SKY WARRIORS', a company in Atlanta USA, that gave instruction in Air Combat Manuvering (ACM). The planes, T-34's, were equipped with lasers, and if you 'hit' your opponents aircraft, the smoke generator would kick in, designating a hit. The safety/instructor pilots were all military fighter types.

On 19 April 1999, the airplane pictured lost the right wing while engaged in ACM; both occupants died (parachutes were standard equipment). This accident gounded/restricted the entire US civilian T-34 fleet until the cause of the accident was determined (metal fatigue).

I flew with them 3 times, an exceptionally well-run organization, and some of the best flying I've ever done.

[Dave Downs (LT Ducky)]

In an attempt to get back to the focus of this Forum (WWII), I flew in this plane on 6 Jun 2003....an appropriate date

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

... here's an interesting article from the National Post ref the air heritage at CFB Borden. What a damned shame! I'll bet NOTHING will happen, and that this marks the end of yet another era in Canadian Military history...

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/sto...0-D7D2EBEF4DB4

RCAF historic site falling to pieces

Adrian Humphreys
National Post

Monday, June 30, 2003

CFB BORDEN, Ont. - The birthplace of the Royal Canadian Air Force, a string of distinctive aircraft hangars built during the First World War to train pilots for the Western Front, is on the verge of collapse due to age and neglect.

When the line of identical aircraft hangars at Canadian Forces Base Borden, hurriedly constructed in 1917, was named a National Historic Site in 1989, 11 of the original 17 remained standing.

Since that prestigious designation from the federal government, three have been demolished because money was unavailable for repairs.

At least four more are in imminent danger.

One has already been condemned. The roof sags and water from the last rainfall pools on the floor. Declared a biohazard because of toxic mould creeping from the walls and floorboards, it has a red warning sign on its door: "Danger: Do not enter without respirator protection."

"We don't think they'll survive another winter," said Master Warrant Officer Normand Marion, deputy heritage officer for 16 Wing, the air training unit at Borden.

"The situation is critical," said Colonel Peter Abbott, 16 Wing commander. "There are certain things that need to be done immediately or gravity threatens to bring them down."

A group of officers is making an unusual ultimatum to the federal government: Come up with the $6.7-million to save the site or enough money to tear it down.

"We shouldn't allow the hangars to fall through some benign neglect. There is a responsibility for people to be aware of what is happening," Col. Abbott said.

Colonel G. M. Mahon, base commander of Borden, has written to Department of National Defence headquarters seeking an answer.

"Arguably, this decision is binary and the development of middle options only delays a decision," says Col. Mahon's letter, obtained by the National Post. "Either the hangars that are surplus ... be preserved for heritage purposes or permission be sought to demolish the buildings for both safety and cost-saving reasons."

As perhaps befits military buildings, the soldiers want the hangars to live in glory or die in battle.

- - -

Standing alongside the airstrip at Borden, Col. Abbott bends to grip the stalk of one of the innumerable knee-high weeds reaching up from deep cracks in the asphalt. Despite the application of considerable muscle, the plant refuses to budge.

No matter. Removing it would make little difference; the weeds claimed his airfield a decade ago.

Now, he fears, nature will also take away his hangars.

At Col. Abbott's back, as he faces the eight remaining wooden buildings of the old hangar line, is a sweeping vista that ends only when the sandy plains meet the distant slopes of the Niagara Escarpment.

It is an unobstructed view that remains unchanged from April 4, 1917, when the first group of Royal Flying Corps recruits gathered for their first day of training.

Borden is 80 kilometres northwest of Toronto. Covering 85 square kilometres, it was cut from the wilderness during the First World War to train army recruits before sending them to the battlefields of France and Flanders, where both sides were bogged down in a vicious and costly war of attrition.

Air power was seen as a way to break the deadlock and Britain looked to Canada for help. Our government offered an airstrip, training and a roster of young men willing to be made into pilots. Borden was an ideal spot, offering plenty of space and skies far from enemy aircraft.

On Feb. 2, 1917, construction began on what was called Borden's "aerodrome."

Within months, 15 hangars, along with repair shops, stores, a hospital, messes and staff quarters, had been built, said Major Jean-Maurice Pigeon, heritage officer for 16 Wing. Two more hangars were added later.

Each identical hangar looked simple from the outside -- measuring 120 feet long and 66 feet wide with straight walls and a bow-shaped roof. At the ends were large sliding doors allowing easy access for the 10 Curtiss JN-4 biplanes that each housed.

Inside, however, they were an architectural marvel.

Long timber posts, supported by diagonal beams, held aloft the intricate wooden lattices that formed the roof trusses. The trick was to keep such a large roof up without supporting columns that would rip the wings from any aircraft being wheeled in or out.

The hangars were built end-to-end, equally spaced in a long, lazy S-shape beside the runway, creating the "hangar line."

In 1917, Lieutenant-Colonel Cuthbert Gurney Hoare, who headed the air training effort, wrote to his superiors that the hangars were built as temporary structures in "the cheapest forms of construction compatible with strength."

That any of them remain is a testament to the sound design and skill of the builders.

Young men arrived in the spring of 1917 to learn basic airmanship before leaving for Britain.

Just four days after the first day of flight training at the hangars came Canada's first fatal military flying accident. Cadet James Harold Talbot died when his plane crashed into one of the repair shops beside the hangars on April 8, 1917.

By the end of the First World War, Borden had turned out 1,884 pilots, including William Barker, who won the Victoria Cross for an epic, single-handed battle with some 60 German aircraft.

"The hangars collectively formed the operational centre for the Camp Borden air station. As such, they were the birthplace of organized military aviation in Canada and illustrate the evolutionary process that led to the creation of the Canadian Air Force in 1920, followed in 1924 by the birth of the Royal Canadian Air Force," says a DND document on the hangar line.

The aerodrome at Borden played a significant role during the Second World War as well, forming part of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan that saw air crews from Australia, New Zealand, Britain and Canada train at Borden and scores of other bases across Canada.

The success of the program prompted Franklin D. Roosevelt, the U.S. president, to call Canada the "Aerodrome of Democracy."

With a nod to that legacy, the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada classified the hangar line a historic site, placing it on an equal footing with the fortress of Louisbourg, the 18th-century fortified town in Nova Scotia, and the Citadelle de Québec, the most important fortification built in Canada under British rule.

"By virtue of both their place in the development of Canadian military aviation and the fact that they are the earliest known surviving examples of their functional building type, the eleven former Royal Flying Corps hangars at CFB Borden, collectively, are of national historic and architectural significance," says a letter from the historic sites board in 1989.

But the designation, while prestigious, means little in real terms.

"We do such a poor job in this country of maintaining our history and our heritage," said William J. Coyle, honorary colonel of the Canadian Forces aerospace technology school at Borden.

"There are some really great stories here. If we lose the physical presence of the hangar line, how do we pass them along to our children and grandchildren without them being able to come and see and touch and feel them?

"To sit by and watch them literally fall apart is really soul-destroying."

A few of the hangars have been upgraded and converted to more modern use. Classrooms for the Air Cadets are housed in Hangar 3 and halon fire suppression reserves are stored in Hangar 6.

The smartest of the lot, Hangar 11, is a museum chronicling the history of the RCAF and displaying restored vintage planes, including the oldest flying aircraft in Canada.

Both Col. Abbott and Mr. Coyle believe Parks Canada or a private foundation needs to step forward to prevent the museum from one day being the only reminder of the landmark line.

"We do a good job of training soldiers, sailors and airmen, but we're not necessarily good at maintaining historic sites," Col. Abbott said.

"As an air force officer, I have some personal feelings on the matter. But I have to face the very real possibility that the decision could be no, the people of Canada do not want to spend the money to save the hangar line.

"As I've joked to my staff, if the decision comes to tear them down, I'm not going to chain myself to the front hangar doors."

At that, Mr. Coyle interrupts: "That's my job," he said.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Dave Downs (LT Ducky)
In an attempt to get back to the focus of this Forum (WWII), I flew in this plane on 6 Jun 2003....an appropriate date

While at the beach last summer with the family on Lake Champlain at Plattsburg NY,I was entertained for a couple of hours by an olive drab C-47 in USAAF markings including WW2 invasion stripes who finaly climbed & dropped a load of skydivers over the Plattsburg municipal airport

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I always wanted to jump a C-47, but the closest we got to it was 11 guys out of Beech 18 in 9 seconds, with full battledress and jump smocks (and a few with Stens under their harness). It was a "high" nonetheless...!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Geoff,this was this first aircraft i flew in as a tenderfoot air cadet while at summer camp at the Farnham army camp..Talk about shake,rattle & roll.There were at that time gobs of CMP's.We'd go to the beach in C60's.About 20 yrs back went to Freeport Bahamas.Across the apron were two engineless Beech 18's,.They had white roofs & silver underbodies.Faintly,along the sides,I cud make out the faded red thunder bolts.Ex RCAF.What a waste of history.I still wonder how many farmers near the Farnham base bought the CMP's at auction for their farms.This area of the Eastern Townships may be a goldmine for CMP finds

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
I still wonder how many farmers near the Farnham base bought the CMP's at auction for their farms.This area of the Eastern Townships may be a goldmine for CMP finds

Well, gerrout there and find the bloody things! I need a good C-60 cab & chassis for Sean's Wireless "I" box...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

BTW, I agree with regards the Beech 18... wonderful old girl! Leaked like a sieve, but flew like a dream. When we were jumping at Arthur 20 years ago, the pilot was ex-Luftwaffe... after he dropped us over the field at about 3,000 feet, he'd be on the ground before we were. Amazing flying... often thought it would be more fun staying with him than doing what we were doing...

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Well, gerrout there and find the bloody things! I need a good C-60 cab & chassis for Sean's Wireless "I" box...

Before I joined this forum 2 years ago,I'd take the family to the Brome Fair at the end of August just south of Farnham(now a family tradition).Every time down there I'd see a Cab-15 & tell my girls"Hey that's the kind of truck grandpa drove"But for the life of me.can't remember the places in the country where I saw them.Willwork on it.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
BTW, I agree with regards the Beech 18... wonderful old girl! Leaked like a sieve, but flew like a dream. When we were jumping at Arthur 20 years ago, the pilot was ex-Luftwaffe... after he dropped us over the field at about 3,000 feet, he'd be on the ground before we were. Amazing flying... often thought it would be more fun staying with him than doing what we were doing...

His name was Hans Wettstein.

Remember the exit...jab or door?...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
His name was Hans Wettstein.

Remember the exit...jab or door?...

Dammit, for an Olde Farte, your memory's pretty good!

Never did an exit that wasn't a military jab... all those civilian sissies flailing in the wind...

Remember Bhuppie getting the static line wrapped around his scrawny neck? Damn, the bugger drank half my canteen of scotch before he even got out of his rig on the ground!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Speaking of such things, does anyone know of a good history, or preferably a memoir, of service in the 2nd Tactical Air Force, the Typhoon guys of Normandy Fame? Much had been written about Bomber Command, less so but some good stuff on Fighter Command, but nothing I've found to-date on 2TAF (except for the odd references such as in Blackburn).

I'd even be happy with novels covering same...

[Frank Misztal]

Geoff, you might want to check the following areas for airforce historical information:

Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH) Publications page - a DND website. They have online pubs, CD ROMs, etc.

Canadian Air Force History page - a Canadian Forces site.

Air Force Honours and Awards - Air Force Association of Canada site.

If you don't find what you want online, I'm sure that sending an e-mail to any one of the above-mentioned orgs will assist you in getting what you're looking for.

I hope this helps.

Frank sends ...

[Peter Nenadovich]

Hello Geoff,

On the 2nd TAF book front, I was lucky enough to pick-up a book at a library book sale called "The Day of The Typhoon - Flying with the RAF tankbusters in Normandy". It was written by a fellow named John Golley, who flew Tiffies with 245 Squadron from airstrip B-5 at Le Fresne Camilly. He was there through all the Falaise fighting as well as Mortain. A very interesting read. I highly recommend. My edition was published by Wren's Park Publishing in 2001. It featured a forward by Roland Beamont.

Another book I recommend would be "Mosquito, Typhoon and Tempest - at War" by Chaz Bowyer, Arthur Reed and Roland Beamont. It's one of those large format hardcovers that is a reprint of two older Ian Allen publications in thier "At War" aviation series. It's a collection of reminiscences about the aircraft as told from many angles - from designers to armourers to pilots. Another good read. I think I ordered mine from Chapters a couple of summers ago - it was in their bargain history section as I recall.


Good Luck in Your Searches

Peter Nenadovich