Montreal Black Watch RHR drummer 'Bubsy Earl Young

[Joyce]

I am trying to find records pertaining to my grandfather's three
brothers who enlisted in the Black Watch together at the beginning of WWII.
The older two brothers were sheet metal workers and when the officers in charge learned of their trade they were "transferred to ordinance" whatever that means! So much for looking after their baby brother like Mom wanted. The youngest was underage of course.
I have no information at all regarding their enlistment other than they enlisted with the Black Watch in Montreal.
We are trying to compile a family history and would very much like to include some information regarding their military service.
The three gentleman were:

John Leroy Young sheet metal worker > ordinance?
Leonard Earl Young " " " "
Earl Marvin "Bubsy" Young " drummer in the Pipe band

Bubsy's sister Grace remembers waiting impatiently to see her brother in his "skirt"! She was eleven at the time they enlisted.

Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated!
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

Welcome, from one woman MLU Member to another, who joined MLU in search of information about relatives.

I have some questions for you regards your Grandfathers brothers.

Did they all make it home from the war?

Do you know that you can PROBABLY get your Grandfathers brothers service records from Canadian National Archives if they have been passed away for some length of time by now? I forget, off the top of my head, what the timeframe is before you can get them without restrictions as to access.

I just looked for a link to the National Archives about applying for Military Service Records, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll keep looking if you want to enquire about getting records.



Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I just looked for a link to the National Archives about applying for Military Service Records, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll keep looking if you want to enquire about getting records.

Stop looking you old bat, it's right here under your nose .....

.... next time, wear your glasses

... now back to and ......

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Stop looking you old bat, it's right here under your nose .....

.... next time, wear your glasses

... now back to and ......

Cheers

You're correct old fart, it WAS there all the time. I just couldn't find it in spite of looking all through the site. (Thank you Mark )

Joyce, you'll have to excuse Mark, he hasn't bothered me for a long time and now he has to catch up with giving me a hard time in the forum. He's been absent a while and been deprived of that pleasure

For the record Joyce, Mark is invaluable in MLU in his ability to somehow magically and almost instantaneously, many times, come up with information or point people in the right directions for finding out what they're wanting to know. I don't know how he does it, but I know that I, for one, am indebted for life, for how he has helped me find out about my relatives, one in particular. I owe him many, many

MLU is an amazing place. I hope you find out a lot of what you're needing to know, for you and your family. It's so wonderful to be able to finally put family knowledge where there were blanks before, and pass that on. I'm glad you care enough to be searching this all out ...

Take care,

Karmen

[Joyce]

Thank you both for your help.
I have been to the archive site and they require a copy of birth cert or obit. or funeral notice AND I have to be more closely related than the granddaughter of their brother!
I am going to try to find a means of contacting my distant cousins if I can find some to find out their date of death and whether any of them would be willing to request the file for me.
I'm also supposed to know their regimental number or such...
I am hoping I'll eventually be able to find photos of the BLack Watch uniform and whatever the heck ordinance is!?

If I find out some of the dates of either enlistment and or death my father's aunt may be able to request her brother's records.

Keep your fingers crossed!

All the best & remember Red Friday's.

Joyce

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Joyce
The older two brothers were sheet metal workers and when the officers in charge learned of their trade they were "transferred to ordinance" !?

and

Originally posted by Joyce
whatever the heck ordinance is!?

Joyce;

What is meant by 'ordinance' in the two above mentioned quotes is more than likely the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps (R.C.O.C.), at that time a branch of the army. I'll post a brief description of the R.C.O.C. within the next day or so.

Cheers

Originally posted by Joyce
Thank you both for your help.

All the best & remember Red Friday's.

Joyce

Hi Joyce,

Did ANY of your Grandfathers' brothers pass away more than 20 years ago? If so, I think that anyone may request the service records, whether related or not.

Family is always a good place to turn for trying to find out information, especially siblings, children and grandchildren of the one who served, if any.

Meanwhile, there are a number of places to check out that I can think of to gather more information about the Black Watch. I found the link for the Black Watch of Canada for you, if you haven't come across it yet I suggest visiting the site and browsing it, The "History" link is a good one to check out for all sorts of information ... it has a drop down menu of links, including one for Archives (which is where I found the below information for you )

They also have a "Montreal Branch" you can check out: http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/en/assocs.htm

And ... a photo gallery that you might enjoy looking at as well:
http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/en/photoarchive.htm

It looks like you have a good possibility of getting records or info from the Black Watch site ... I hope so!!!! Let me know if this works out for you!

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/

Record Requests
We receive numerous requests for personnel records every week. The research on these requests is done on a volunteer basis. Our archives are not publicly funded, and we must rely on donations to provide this service; therefore we ask for your help in keeping the archives accessible.

For the period of 1900-1945 requests must be submitted by downloading this ARCHIVE REQUEST FORM which is in PDF format. You must have the free Acrobat Reader available HERE, to open this type of document. E-mail requests will no longer be accepted.

Other on-line resources include:
National Archives of Canada
Black Watch WW2 Casualty Database
Commonwealth War Graves Commission

As for the "Ordinance" part ... I'll hope someone else jumps in here and can explain that to you, because I don't know enough about anything to answer you.

Good luck, and keep asking your questions.

I love how you ended your last post about remembering RED FRIDAYS! Welcome, again, to MLU from me!

Karmen

PS: Ooops ... back in here to add that Mark was already jumping in while I was writing this post

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
As for the "Ordinance" part ... I'll hope someone else jumps in here and can explain that to you, because I don't know enough about anything to answer you.

.. at least you know your name ........ sometimes ....

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
... back in here to add that Mark was already jumping in while I was writing this post

... I thought I stepped on something on the way in ......

... PLEASE STAY TUNED MA AND MAYBE YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING .....

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
.. at least you know your name ........ sometimes ....

It's a miracle, praise for me from you. Why thank you, SIR

... I thought I stepped on something on the way in ......

... PLEASE STAY TUNED MA AND MAYBE YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING .....

Listening up now, I am, I am ... (you ARE a cheeky buggar, you )

Ma Yappy (So named by Mark Tonner hisssssself)

Hi again Joyce,

Another thing I found in the Black Watch site is a forum, which I glanced at and scrolled down. If you scroll way down the page you will notice that many posts look like "Last Post" or obituaries, memorials. Maybe that forum would be a good place to post and request information from members. You DO have to register to join to be able to post.

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/cgi/....cgi?az=n_mesg

I hope you get something out of the things I've posted for you.

Take Care,

Karmen

Joyce, please check your PM's. I found something for you!

Karmen

Hi Joyce, I have lots of spare time on my hands to look around online, most days. A very close friend of mine is interested in learning more about the Black Watch, and I let him know when I find things that might interest him. His Dad was in the Black Watch, but after the war, and never saw any action. He is also interested in the uniforms ... and as I was browsing the photos in the BW site I came across the one (follow link below) taken 1945, and I would guess "Earl Marvin "Bubsy" Young " drummer in the Pipe band, wore ... but, someone else will know better than I for sure.

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/cgi/...5.jpg&img=&tt=

another taken 1946 "in the bandroom":

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/cgi/...jpg&img=16&tt=

1st Bn WW2 Vets:

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/cgi/...6.jpg&img=&tt=

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Joyce;

The task or job, of the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps (R.C.O.C.), during the period of the Second World War (1939-1945), in support of the Canadian Army, was:

- to stock and issue armaments
- to stock and issue ammunition
- to stock and issue motor transport
- to stock and issue armoured vehicles
- to stock and issue signals equipment
- to stock and issue clothing
- to stock and issue medical supplies
- to stock and issue engineer material
- operated the laundry and bath units

and until February 1944, the R.C.O.C. was responsible for the repair and maintenance of all equipment.

Cheers

[Joyce]

Holy smokes Batman!

You folks are fast!

I have tried the Black Watch website and will continue to check in with them as well as the Montreal Association. Thank you so much, Mark for the explanation regarding the Ordinance. I suppose it was their ability to do the repair and maintenace in particular.
Would you figure that information would be sufficient to identify their unit or obtain their regimental number?

Thank you Karmen for finding those photos so quickly. I'll keep you posted. In case you didn't find this one little blip on the Black Watch site, there is going to be a reunion this spring (listed on the Montreal association Balmoral News page. I wonder if they might be a source of info for your other Black Watch searcher.

Back to you in a little bit once I have checked all these sites out!

Thanks again,

Joyce

Originally posted by Joyce
[B]Holy smokes Batman!

You folks are fast!

MLU is an amazing place, I swear quite magic at times!

Thank you Karmen for finding those photos so quickly. I'll keep you posted. In case you didn't find this one little blip on the Black Watch site, there is going to be a reunion this spring (listed on the Montreal association Balmoral News page. I wonder if they might be a source of info for your other Black Watch searcher.

Back to you in a little bit once I have checked all these sites out!

Thanks again,

Joyce

As mentioned in the PM, you will probably be able to get the regimental/service numbers from the Black Watch site, especially if they also sound like you can apply for service records through them as well.

I will be telling Greg (my friend from early childhood) about the site, and tell him to browse all of its links.

Thanks Joyce ... hopefully you're on a roll now, hey?

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Joyce
Would you figure that information would be sufficient to identify their unit or obtain their regimental number?

Hi Joyce;

If you cannot find their respective service numbers for requesting their Record of Service, the Library and Archives Canada site (here) states that secondary information may be used -

Look under the sub-heading 'How to Send an Inquiry Concerning Your Own or Another Individual's Records' and go to the third point under this heading, which reads:

"If you do not know the date of birth, service number or S.I.N. (social insurance number), secondary information (e.g., the names of next of kin, postings, dates of service, place of enlistment) can assist in identifying the correct individual"

For this 'secondary information', you could -

- If either were married at the time of enlistment, put down their wives names, if not, their mother's (or parent's) name as next of kin
- Montreal for place of enlishment
- the from/to dates that you think they served (from 1939 to 1945/46)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

I don’t know if this will be of help, but here is a link to the RCOC museum in Montreal.

http://rcocmuseum.com/RCOCMuseum.html

[Joyce]

I am beginning to sound like a broken record...
Thank you, thank you!

Three cheers for you all!

I'll check out the RCOC site tonight and see if they're as amazingly fast as you folks are!

Through the link Karmen found with the obit for Bubsy I chased it back and the Legion magasine listed his service record number. One down, two to go...!

All the best,

Joyce

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Joyce
I am trying to find records pertaining to my grandfather's three
brothers who enlisted in the Black Watch together at the beginning of WWII.
The older two brothers were sheet metal workers and when the officers in charge learned of their trade they were "transferred to ordinance" whatever that means!

and

I have no information at all regarding their enlistment other than they enlisted with the Black Watch in Montreal.

Hi Joyce;

Do you know if it was in September 1939 that the three brothers enlisted.

Cheers

[Joyce]

I am afraid all I know is 1939 from Bubsy's obit. The Legion magasine article also listed his service number so I should make out o.k. for his record. I just need to contact his sister to request the record since his death was in 2004.

I've put a posting on the Army.ca forum as well with the hope that someone might recognise the names of Leonard and John so I can try for the correct group in RCOC (in Montreal I guess).

Bubsy's obit did mention his service in the Black Watch but not that he was a drummer so I hope the BW site will be able to help with verifying his participation in the band.

I'll get back to pester you with more questions when I find out some more!
All the best,
Joyce

Legion Magazine Last Post:

Earl Marvin Young:
http://www.legionmagazine.com/lastpo...Data_ID=179136

I wasn't able to find listings for the other two brothers in the Last Post's lists. Your Aunt Grace will probably be able to help you with information, I hope.

Karmen

[Joyce]

Hi, Karmen,

Thank you again for looking, I was up late last night searching their list and I'm glad to hear I didn't miss them this time because I came up with zero as well. I'm learning.
I've also signed on to the forum at www.army.ca from the RCOC website and maybe someone there will recognise the names.
I'll let you know!
Joyce

Originally posted by Joyce
Hi, Karmen,

Thank you again for looking, I was up late last night searching their list and I'm glad to hear I didn't miss them this time because I came up with zero as well. I'm learning.
I've also signed on to the forum at www.army.ca from the RCOC website and maybe someone there will recognise the names.
I'll let you know!
Joyce

Cool. The guy who runs that site is also an MLU member but I don't see him in here often. That sites forum is pretty busy!

I do a lot of geneology searches as well and maybe I can find newspaper obituaries archives to search. I've found out a lot of family information through obits searches, or other people doing famiy trees that have posted their trees online

Back to my now.

Karmen (no need to reply to every response I do. You'll go crazy trying to keep up with replies, like I do! )

[Joyce]

You realise of course that genealogy is addictive.

sign you have gone over the edge:

When you wake in the middle of the night ( o.k. I'm 52 and the change is messing with my sleep habits) and find your self trying to solve the problem of who your great- great- great granddad married.

Are you searching for your own family history or are you just addicted to the detective work?


Joyce

Both ... the family history AND the detective work

My interest in my Uncle (I mentioned about him) came up full force for me again when I started a basic family history search and discovered the Virtual War Memorial site and found my Uncle Ed, through which I ended up finding MLU through a post in the Legion's message board about 4 years ago, and I've been here ever since. My Uncle Ed has been stuck in my head and heart as a great mystery since early childhood. I feel in love with his photograph as a 19 year old he was when the photo was taken. An MIA photo my Mom had ... and so on ... amazing when we walk back through our family lines just how many men (and women) served. And what an education about the world and people, events, we learn as a bonus. How can it not be addictive?

Knowledge about my Uncle/s and other relatives who served has been won through MLU-ers too (especially Mark ... thank you again Master Tonner )

My geneology searches just started stretching back in time and off in all sorts of branch directions ... like an umbilical cord (or several) stretching back through history. I'm not a fanatic ... but I am certainly fascinated.

If you happen to be lucky enough to be able to connect back to Hudson's Bay Company and settling Canada days ... and before, there is an astounding amount of information and data online, even family trees. Births, deaths, marriages ... and on and on. So much work is already done and online for free to find out, via other peoples searches. Actual documents all costs money, but Archivianet has a lot for the copying and pasting. Land grants, scrip, etc.

Isn't it amazing where our ancestors lead us in life and learning ... and even more amazing, the people they introduce us to through our searching?

I'll be 53 in April and past "all that" already. I just have unpredictable hours often! Must be old age?

Karmen

[Eric B]

Hello Joyce

I an resurrecting this post as I have the files you are looking for on Drummer Earl Young.

D82432 YOUNG, Earl Marven (Drummer) (Private)
Born: May 1920, Montreal, QC, Canada
Enlisted: 28 June 1940 - Rosemount QC - age 20
21 June 1941 Disembarked United Kingdom
Disembarked France 6 July 1944
Wounded: 24 July 1944
Discharged: 08 January 1945 - age 24
Canadian Volunteer Service Medal & Clasp, 1939-45 Star France & Germany, Defence Medal, War Medal 1939-45

Thanks
Eric