Jeep project underway

[Mike K]

Some progress or maybe not. To save on postage charges, I have been making my own bits whenever it is practical to do so. The Jeep parts vendors here in Aust. seem to base their prices on the U.S. $ plus the postage costs from the U.S. I buy the smaller bits like seals direct from RFJP, he bundles the bits together for me into one parcel.

Seems silly to make something like the axle U bolt deep nuts but 16 of these nuts adds up to quite a weight. And I had a length of hex bar on hand .

[Mike K]

I find its best to wrap cleaned and primed parts in Glad Wrap for storage. My T84 gearbox case has major issues, with scored C/shaft thrust faces both ends. The transfer case has suffered the same issue with scored intermediate gear thrust faces and somebody has bushed the shaft holes with bronze bushes. Every bearing needs replacing in the front/rear axles and gearbox and more.

The engine is away being machined , been a long wait but most of these machine shops have closed in this region, not much choice available.

[Philliphastings]

Hi Mike, great to see you stepping back into the Jeep restoration world.

I am facing the same parts supply V cost issues.

Do you harden the nuts you made ?

Cheers

Phill

[Mike Cecil]

Good to see, Mike. What vintage jeep is it - MB, MA, GPW ... and year?

The cost aspect is an interesting one. I've done a database with a column listing parts, and several columns, one for each parts supplier, where I put their listed prices for each item I am going to need. Amazing the differences between them for the same part, and of course, the added tax and shipping.

Like you, I'm also wrapping completed parts and boxing them up as I complete them, but I'm using cheap shop towel (crappy blue paper, comes in rolls) and masking tape.

Mike

[Mike K]

Hi Phil

The Hex bar I used to make the nuts , I am not sure what grade of steel it is - I think it's probably 1045 or similar which is medium carbon steel. It should be fine for this application. With buying parts , I have found RFJP to be hard to beat .Great communication and prices plus he goes out of his way to help you with the cheapest postage rates.

Mike

The Jeep is a basic generic MB but I will have to use some parts from the GPW I bought last year. The repro parts and the online information available now - if only we had this data earlier when we were not so fussy about bolt head markings .

[Mike Cecil]

Have to agree on both counts.

Many of the parts I've been buying have been from RFJP due to price, availability, level of service, and a proper, itemised and readable invoice. I also have the advantage in the USA of buying in lots of $200+ to receive free shipping. I still prefer Rockauto for bearings and seals, though, as I can get name brands. I still place some jobs locally, though, whenever I can, such as the generator and starter rebuilds I received back yesterday from Toby's Auto Elec, and the repro torque reaction springs done by Pohl Springs.

The internet/forums/FB have made answering queries easy and quick - a far cry from our earlier days of talking at club meetings and swap meets, eh Mike? In any event, I'm pretty sure an Army 'motor pool' rebuild or contractor were not too fussy about bolt head markings.

Looking forward to following your MB build.

Mike

[Mike K]

Made a start on the jeep spring pivot bolts. I can buy these from RFJP but the postage is high and I would prefer to learn some new skills.

This is a learning project for me, it involves turning, thread cutting, the use of a dividing head and thread tapping for the zerk grease fitting. I chose 4140 chrome moly alloy because it's a strong material, is easy to obtain and is relatively easy to machine in the tempered state .

First step is: turning the stock down to 9/16" ( .5625") and threading the ends to the correct N.F. thread pitch. I prefer the old HSS type single point tools that you grind to shape yourself on a bench grinder . The modern carbide insert tools, well, there are endless types and it is a never ending process finding the correct type to suit .

[Mike K]

I managed to do the threads on the pivot bolts. Single point thread cutting on a lathe is a somewhat meticulous job . If you lose concentration for half a second, the process usually ends in horrible mess.

Wrap the work piece in a piece of cut up Alu drink can and the chuck jaws will not mark the work piece !

[Philliphastings]

Hi Mike K,

Just curious how do you go about broaching the interference fit neck of the pivot bolts.

I have a good grasp of the more basic machining but broaching in such an inaccessable spot must be very tricky ?

Cheers

Phill

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Philliphastings

Hi Mike K,

Just curious how do you go about broaching the interference fit neck of the pivot bolts.

I have a good grasp of the more basic machining but broaching in such an inaccessable spot must be very tricky ?

Cheers

Phill

Hi Phil

The short splined section of the bolt that is located right up against the bolt head . I believe they designed the bolt like that in order to prevent the bolt from turning in the chassis hanger, in others words, to lock the bolt in place . The splines bite into the chassis hanger hole as you tighten up the nut and draw the head up against the hanger.

I don't like the method myself, it is actually a bit of a bodge . Problem is: The splines really make a mess of the reamed hole. If you have to remove the bolt a few times , the hole ends up being torn and messed up. The hangers are only made from 1/4" plate which is a design flaw.

Not easy to replicate that splined section in a hobby workshop, you could knurl the area which will create a raised pattern. I am not off roading this jeep , it will be OK to leave the bolt head as a plain finish.

If I did buy new bolts from RFJP, I would have machined off the splines before fitting his pivot bolts.

[Mike K]

I managed to almost finish the pivot bolts. I don't have a U.S. standard NPT 1/8 tap for the zerk grease fittings so I used a 1/8 BSP tap - I will lose points at the concourse but I will say its a field fix 1/8 BSP zerk fittings are available at most auto shops here.

The dividing head I made myself to Harold Hall's design. Harold has had many books published and he is the doyen of the hobby engineering scene , he must be getting close to 90 these days .

I have a 48 tooth gear on the dividing head. To machine the bolt head flats you divide 48 by 6 = 8 notches for each flat.

[Lynn Eades]

Mike, without the pin locking in the hanger, the pin movement will occur between the hangers and the pins. This will happen rapidly because the surface area is relatively small. Not only that, but the fix is difficult because your hangers are riveted to the chassis.
The whole idea is for the movement and wear to occur between the shackle pin and the spring bush which is set up for greasing at that point. Also the bushes are an easy replacement along with the pins.

Note that the nuts for the shacle pins are castleated so as to be located by a split pin. This leaves some free movement at the ends of the bushes relative to the hangers. This helps to prevent spring breakage.
Maybe you could try an interfearance taper and step at the pin head? Just a thought.......

[Mike K]

Hi Lynn

The original design is flawed. With the original setup in good condition , the bolts will rotate after a very short period of use. The rotating happens because the bolt splines damage/enlarge the reamed holes , this hole damage begins the process of the elongation of the holes, and it becomes worse as time goes on. A much better method of preventing the bolt from turning is what the Dodge WC vehicles have, that is, a protruding flat section on the outside face of the hanger, the protruding face locks one of the bolt head hex faces in place.

As for floating bushes, the problem with that is, if there is any amount of wear in the bushes or bolts , a yawing or sideways movement of the whole front axle will occur. The yawing action will actually add to the elongation of the holes in the spring hangers. At the other end of the springs, the threaded U shaped shackles don't have enough rigidity to hold the axles in the correct aligned position , those shackles have some wobble , even when new. I am not a automotive engineer , these are my theories .. my theories might be wrong but on the practical side of things, I've seen more than one WW2 Jeep chassis in otherwise excellent condition, with badly elongated spring hanger holes

[Mike K]

This is a good instructional video on how NOT to install your jeep pivot bolts The bushing is loose in the spring eye for a start . And those spring washers

You can see the hanger hole is too large for the bolt anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A70wHVerz2k

[Mike Cecil]

Yep, pretty dodgy method in that video, Mike. I suppose, given the limited service life span that the GPW and MB were designed for, the method of preventing the pivot bolts from rotating was cheap, easily installed and sufficiently robust, so 'good enough' in the circumstances. I doubt the designers envisaged that MB and GPWs would be still employed by armies well into the 1960s, or that civilians would be trying to rebuild them nearly 80 years later.

There are possibly plenty of improvements that could be made to various parts of a jeep to make it more robust and longer-lasting. The chassis came in for some officially-promulgated strengthening while in service by the addition of 'T' pieces at the rear, and the steering bell-crank received an added web, for example.

Nice job on the bolts: very skillful.

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Unfortunately Mike and Mike, there are lots of "how to" You tube clips that demonstrate less than "best practice" info. I guess if the bush was longer and was locked in the hanger and you didn't mind wearing the spring eye that would do? (except that no grease gets to the right place)
I note that my replacement bolts have an 1/8th gas thread in them (and it appears) like the one in the You tube clip. He has used an NPT zerk. (very loose)
His use of the spring washer, is to fill the gap, other wise the nut floats around under the split pin. I used a flat washer.
All in all, that clip fails at all points. As you say, "How not to".

[Mike K]

The Ford factory drawing of the jeep spring hanger: the inside width dimension should be a few thou under 1.7" . After measuring the repro hangers I have, I discovered they were wider by quite a margin. I managed to press the sides inwards to the cortect width using a hydraulic jack.

[Mike K]

I have tracked down a few more jeep bits and will be picking them up this weekend up as the Melbourne/regional travel lockdown has finally been eased.

I bought these drills and the feedback reports seem to indicate they are decent quality. For the price it's worth a gamble.

https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-50...r_warehouse=CN

Can't have too many drills Postage time for items from China has slowed right down recently. Wonder if there is any W.A. iron ore in these drills

[Mike K]

The Banggood drills have arrived, they appear to be decent quality , M35 grade but who knows what they are actually made from

In between lockdowns I managed to pickup a NOS WW2 Jeep front axle assembly minus the CV joints and brake bits. The seller informed me he purchased the axle from Hughes Coburg in the 1960s. I paid what people pay for a carton of beer these days.

On teardown it displays nil wear , the bell crank post is mint which is handy as these things can be a nightmare to remove.

On the negative side it has been stored in a damp environment and rust has damaged the crown wheel to the point of being useless.

I will be replacing the tie rod ends and all of the bearings , the hemispheres have suffered from corrosion too but should clean up OK . I found the RZEPPA tags still on the swivel housings which is a bonus.

The crown wheel was difficult to get out , seized carrier bearings .

[Mike K]

An update on things.

The suspension issues on the build are turning into a nightmare. I want the suspension to be solid and safe , no compromises. This Jeep came with post-war locally made replacement springs, almost certainly fitted by the Aust. army. These 1950s replacements have the usual issues, worn/thin leaves and worn eyes.

I do have three original WW2 springs, again, worn leaves, worn out of round eyes , corrosion , just what you would expect from near 80 year old springs.

I decided to buy two new front 8 leaf springs... yes, they are strong, and have slightly thicker leaves (about .030"). Problem is, they bear little resemblance to original WW2 Jeep springs, just about everything is wrong ! Leaves are wrong length, edges not beveled, the rebound clips are incorrect.

What to do. I have decided to use the two new long #1 and #2 leaves, and file the edges to a bevel. I have the original WW2 specs. and drawings. I found some 80" Land Rover springs ( also slightly thicker ) in reasonable shape, these are the same width as Jeep springs, 1.75" . My plan is to cut these LR leaves to length and file the edges and re-camber them to the correct arch.

Well, that's it. All this takes time and effort and it never ends !

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Is grinding or otherwise adapting the new springs to approximate the originals even an option?

[Lars R.]

Mike,

are you not doing the same work on the LR springs now, which could be done on the new repro springs? The correct (NOS) rebound clips are still available and could be used...and the re-cambering seems to last from "lunch till noon".

Nearly EVERYTHING is reproduced (quality?) nowadays (re-cast motor blocks and T84 cases even!), but correct and good springs are not...strange! MDJ tried GPW ones several years ago, but I believe they never hit the market!

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Lars R.

Mike,

are you not doing the same work on the LR springs now, which could be done on the new repro springs? The correct (NOS) rebound clips are still available and could be used...and the re-cambering seems to last from "lunch till noon".

Nearly EVERYTHING is reproduced (quality?) nowadays (re-cast motor blocks and T84 cases even!), but correct and good springs are not...strange! MDJ tried GPW ones several years ago, but I believe they never hit the market!

Hi Lars and Bruce

The problem is: the new 'repro' spring leaves I have, #3 to #8 are too short. My plan is to relocate/use some of the new repro leaves in my 'made up' spring pack which will be a mixture of the new repro and old Land Rover leaves. I can fabricate the Willy style rebound clips , no need to buy them.

The new 134 blocks have problems , I have read reports of valve guide bores being out of alignment and much casting flashing needs to be cleaned up, plus they are copies of the post-war CJ geared type blocks which is a rather strange way to go.

With the T84 stuff, I can only comment on what I saw back years ago when repro parts were not widely available, back then, we all generally used genuine original (partly worn) parts. We had no issues as far as I can recall. Nowadays, problems seem to arise when people use repro T84 parts that have been made to improper tolerances.

[Mike K]

The factory fitted WW2 era Jeep springs have beveled edges : on each of the leaves, the lower edge is beveled. Unfortunately for us restorers, the post war and repro springs ( at least the examples I have seen ) don't have this detail.

I have been experimenting with grinding a bevel into a few leaves , the old Land Rover leaves I have must have been made from good quality high carbon steel, these are hard as nails ! On the other hand, the new repro leaves are noticeably softer , they grind easier, makes you wonder what type of steel the manufacturer has used and how long these repro springs will last.

[Mike K]

I have played with DIY brass etchings a few times, it's a fun project . Rather than paying for a highly overpriced repro Willys data plate set , I am making my own . Not claiming it's going to be a completely accurate copy but hopefully it will be good enough. I used the free libraOffice software which is rather good.

I use circuit board Ferric Chloride acid to etch the cut to size thin brass sheets which are cheap as chips. You use shiny photo paper and a laser printer, you print out a negative image which is then applied to the brass sheet and heated with a household clothes iron , in theory, the black toner adheres to the brass sheet. It is rather a fussy process , not perfect but with practice good results are possible. If you mess up a few times , just print out a few more sheets of the image and experiment . Some use a office type hot plastic sheet laminator and run the job through a few times rather than a hot iron.

[Mike K]

Link to the etching process:

https://metalworkforums.com/f65/t205...ne-plates-mine

[Mike K]

Been looking around for decent quality bearings at a decent price. Jeep diff carrier bearings are expensive, the local bearing suppliers here want well over $100 per bearing, four are required plus the pinion bearings . These are not particularly uncommon bearings, they were used in various other applications.

I have looked into buying online but it's a minefield. There are numerous Chinese vendors selling brand names such as NSK, NTN and KOYO made in Japan, some even have TIMKEN. The Chinese prices are very cheap but postage makes it all add up to approx. $30 per bearing. But you takes your chances dealing directly with Chinese wholesalers - they can take your money and then deliver low quality crap. There is a worldwide fake bearing market, TIMKEN have even marked their boxes with a shiny water mark. TIMKEN have factories in India.

The two Aust. jeep parts dealers ( one is NSW and one in QLD ) I am not sure what brands they sell.

RFJP seems to be low on stock , he sells the cups and cones individually which adds up.

[charlie fitton]

"I don't like the method myself, it is actually a bit of a bodge . Problem is: The splines really make a mess of the reamed hole. If you have to remove the bolt a few times , the hole ends up being torn and messed up. The hangers are only made from 1/4" plate which is a design flaw."

Might I suggest that you could weld a tab on to the Hanger plate to stop the Bolt from "working" and therefore restrict the wear to the bushings?

[Mike K]

Long term saga with the front springs .

My jeep came with the 1950s Aust. post-war made springs.

I later on found a couple of WW2 era front springs , in very bad shape.

Purchased 2 new front springs from a vendor here.

Ok the story:

Repro front springs look very little like the WW2 era springs: leaves are thicker, no bevel on the edge of the leaves, the clips look all wrong, the centre bolt is a joke , how people can sell junk like this !

Pulled apart the WW2 era springs. Hmmm some deep pitting is evident , sagging too and one main leaf end is bent badly. Wear is evident where the leaf ends move and dig into the next leaf.

So I made up a spring pack using the new repro main and 2nd leaves and the rest are the old original WW2 leaves . I had to re-arch the old leaves in my pipe bender. Had to bevel the edges of the repro main and 2nd leaves .

Now make new Willys style spring clips..... the originals are .110" gauge . All I can find here is 3mm flat bar, but it is the correct width .
Lots of filing cutting . Had to make a die to press the dot into the clips and heat up up the metal cherry red .

Very hard to get a tight radius on the 3mm bar ,so my old trick, you cut half way through and bend, then weld and file the radius ...do this 24 times for 2 springs

Also had to machine up new centre bolts , out of good steel, not the plastic stuff the repro bolts are made from. The bolt head needs to be a good fit in the spring saddle .... which is usually worn to a oval shape.

Been working on these springs for over 2 years ..... not finished yet.

I have become rather fed up with the poorly made and expensive repro parts ..I now make my own parts when it is feasible to do so.

[Mike K]

Is there anybody out there who is considering buying a new Chinese cast L134 engine block ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9yfaRZ0nSw

Metalshaper is the guy who knows his vintage jeeps.

I read a report on these Chinese blocks , the valve guide bores are out of alignment, the bores are not perpendicular to the camshaft, that would explain why the valve stems and guides are very worn after only 3k miles of use. .