Dutch buy ex-Australian vehicles

[Mike K]

I've seen references to the NEI in the ARN books

[Hanno Spoelstra]

That is very useful info, Mike!

I've often heard about the Dutch buying vehicles in Australia, but never seen any concrete evidence. The Dutch took over much equipment from the British-Indian Army which occupied Indonesia before them, another source were the ex-Canadian Army dumps in Holland, and bought new vehicles from civilian sources like Willys and Marmon-Herrington. Apparently the hunger for vehicles was so huge they were buying up vehicles in Australia, too.

[Tony Smith]

"Australian unions are trying to prevent the departure of the Tjibesar today"

I wonder if that is in protest over the ships being loaded by Dutch Marines, or in protest of the vehicles supporting the Colonial Dutch against the Independence movement of the Indonesians? Or could it be the Wharfies wanted the Blitzes and Jeeps for themselves? Yeah, probably that.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

"Australian unions are trying to prevent the departure of the Tjibesar today"

I wonder if that is in protest over the ships being loaded by Dutch Marines, or in protest of the vehicles supporting the Colonial Dutch against the Independence movement of the Indonesians? Or could it be the Wharfies wanted the Blitzes and Jeeps for themselves? Yeah, probably that.

They were actually against the colonial Dutch

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

or in protest of the vehicles supporting the Colonial Dutch against the Independence movement of the Indonesians?

Indeed the international politic climate was anti-colonial, due to which it became increasingly difficult for the Dutch government to source military equipment from other nations and defence industries. Hence buying up dump equipment and vehicles in the Netherlands and Australia as we now know.

Of course a truck is a truck, so these were sourced from civilian sources and used as-is, shiny paint, chrome trim and all. A good example is this Dodge stake bed truck pictured in 1948:


Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/c45bf8...6-72c934d10deb

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another snippet of information on ths subject unearthed by Mike:

"Query on Gear Sold To Dutch" (1947, april 17). The Telegraph (Brisbane, Qld. : 1872 - 1947), p. 10

Interesting to read about international trade of buying and selling incomplete vehicles, parts and the subsequent assembly. The twisting and turning of where responsibilities start and end in political sensitive situations is interesting to read. For situations like this the end-user certificate was invented.

CANBERRA: Fourteen boats ranging from 120 ft. to 26 ft., as well as a-few surf boats have been sold by the Federal Government to the Netherlands East Indies Government.
The Minister for Post-War Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) told the Leader of the Country Party (Mr. Fadden) this in the House of RcpresentaUves to-day.
The Commission, he said, had no knowledge of other vessels whicli might have been acquired by the N.E.I.! possibly through ships' brokers and agents in Australia.
Mr. Dedman had been asked by Mr. Fadden whether his attention had been drawn to a recent arUcle in "The Telegraph," Brisbane, in which n special correspondent stated that because of the Australian waterside workers' ban an their ships the Dutch were unable to obtain 1,000 motor trucks, 300 small lighters, 100 large lighters and 12 tugs which they had ' bought ' from the Disposals Commission.
Mr. Dedman said that in 1945 the Commonwealth Disposals Commission sold to the Ford Motor Company 470 unassembled chassis, less front axle assemblies, for resale to the Royal N.E.I. Army.
The Royal N.E.I, Army arranged to purchase through the American authorities sufficient Marmon Her-rington conversion kits to complete the assembly of the chassis.
The Ford Motor Company in turn arranged produce the completed trucks.
The Commission's responsibility in this matter ceased with the disposal of the 479 incomplete unassembled chassis'.
The question of delivery of motor vehicles was one between the Ford Company and"the N.E.1. authorities. Mr. Dedman said.
The Commission was not aware of any small craft purchases by the Netherlnads authorities for which deliveries could not be obtained, he said. "

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Looks like these Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks have those typical Australian 18” wheels, so these may well be part of the batch of Ford trucks bought in Australia.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Looks like these Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks have those typical Australian 18” wheels, so these may well be part of the batch of Ford trucks bought in Australia.

The door windows have the 1/4 vent sections which indicates Ford Australia made the cabs. But the 4x4 Australian assembled trucks were usually 39 to 41 models. The cargo bodies don't look like they are Art tractors either. The late Ken Morris of Pakenham had a 1942 6x6 M-H . I've not seen a 4x4 jailbar but somebody else will chime in with more info.

[Mike Cecil]

Mike,

From post #6(my bolding):

"Mr. Dedman said that in 1945 the Commonwealth Disposals Commission sold to the Ford Motor Company 470 unassembled chassis, less front axle assemblies, for resale to the Royal N.E.I. Army.
The Royal N.E.I, Army arranged to purchase through the American authorities sufficient Marmon Her-rington conversion kits to complete the assembly of the chassis.
The Ford Motor Company in turn arranged [to] produce the completed trucks.
The Commission's responsibility in this matter ceased with the disposal of the 479 incomplete unassembled chassis'."

The Australian Army was working on a Tractor, Artillery (Aust) No.10, based on a Ford 1942 'jailbar' with a MH all wheel drive kit, but the requirement was shelved after the prototype was completed or near completion. There was also the purchase of Ford chassis for 4x2 lorries that were no longer required due to (1) the changing operational situation and (2) the move away from Modified Conventional vehicles to more rugged military pattern vehicles, which resulted in an 'over-supply' of MC types, hence the 'stock' of 470 un-used chassis.

Mike

[Mike K]

Interesting stuff. I noticed the 4x4 jailbar trucks pictured in Hanno's post appear to be RHD but I guess the Dutch weren't too fussy about minor details ! Ford must have supplied the wheels ? The chassis were sold by the CDC to Ford minus the front axles. I guess the original front axles were disposed separately ? A convoluted saga.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks Mike and Mike, interesting stuff indeed!

This thread features some details on Austrilian Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks with the 1942 "jailbar" front end: #5 & #7 M/H (Aust) Field Artillery Tractors.

Here are some more pictures of those ex-Australian Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks. Look at those V-profile 18" tyres: they must have been brand new when these trucks were sold off.





Source: National Archives: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/3d74aa...d-a1441348b399 | http://proxy.handle.net/10648/80ed74...3-2197a07a02cf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

A convoluted saga.

Indeed, the Dutch were scrounging the world market for equipment as more and more governments condemned the Dutch reluctance to stop the war on Indonesia's independence. It is interesting to see how they were able to trade with commercial companies and set up deals like the one above.

While arms deals were scrutinized, manufacturers could get export permits for regular/civilian vehicles. The Dutch authorities were not worried about details like gloss or matt paint, LHD or RHD. Many vehicles were ex-Canadian and British Army with RHD, and the drving in Indonesia was on the left anyway.

Attached are some pictures of more Ford/Marmon-Herrington 6x6 F-series trucks and Willys Civilian Jeeps. Seems the only military thing about them are their registration numbers and markings, they were used in action with gloss paint and shiny chrome as there were no resources to repaint them.

[Mike K]

The Dutch soldiers pictured were mostly conscripts ? I believe some younger Dutch males emigrated rather than be conscripted into the armed services .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

The Dutch soldiers pictured were mostly conscripts ? I believe some younger Dutch males emigrated rather than be conscripted into the armed services .

Yes, the majority were. I once met a veteran of the Dutch Prinses Irene Brigade, he joined as a volunteer after the South of the Netherlands was liberated in '44. He was 17 years old at that time.
After the war, he was drafted for military duty as in the meantime he had turned 18. He reckoned he had done his bit in '44-'45 but that did not count they said, he had to serve for his official conscript period in Indonesia.

[Ian Fawbert]

In adding to this post, and slightly related but sideways from Mike Cecil's post about the Royal NEI Army, there are LOTS of entries for disposal of Australian vehicles in the AWM ledgers citing the purchaser/disposal line being the RNEIA.

Cheers,
Ian.

[Mike Cecil]

Not sideways, Ian, a relevant expansion and also supports Hanno's comments about the Dutch scrounging the world market for equipment. Where better than right next door (so to speak) in Australia? Not only arranging to have new-build trucks from Ford Australia, but any second-hand all wheel drive vehicles no longer required by the Australian Army. I wonder if these were a special 'govt to govt' deal outside the normal CDC disposal channel? It would seem so, otherwise the relevant dealership of the manufacturer (Ford or Willys) would have snapped them up for re-sale to RNEIA, rather than them appearing in the registers as a direct disposal to RNEIA. It's an aspect I've not delved into much beyond the CDC guidelines. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Mike

[David Dunlop]

Interesting reading, Mike.

There probably isn’t a federal government anywhere in the world that has not used, or is still using, a private company to launder surplus military goods to politically incorrect destinations. I have heard rumours for years that the Levy’s operation in Ontario was frequently used as a conduit by the Canadian Government for such purposes.

David

[David Dunlop]

Hanno.

Out of curiosity, what sort of sense do you have of the general feeling of the average Dutch citizen after the war, with regards to Indonesia? Would they have been quite happen with an independent Indonesia?

It seems so odd that Britain, France and Holland, from a political perspective after the war, were all so hell bent on reestablishing their concept of colonialism in Southeast Asia. It was such a costly mistake for all of them.


David

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hanno.

Out of curiosity, what sort of sense do you have of the general feeling of the average Dutch citizen after the war, with regards to Indonesia? Would they have been quite happen with an independent Indonesia?

It seems so odd that Britain, France and Holland, from a political perspective after the war, were all so hell bent on reestablishing their concept of colonialism in Southeast Asia. It was such a costly mistake for all of them.


David

Britain ,France and the rest had to contend with the USA post war policies.
Generally the US was not supportive of the policy of the European powers holding onto their pre-war colonial territories. Roosevelt and Truman were very much anti colonial by nature but things changed when Ike took over and the US supplied arms to the French in Indo China - Vietnam . The US didn't support UK or France in the Suez crisis

[Ed Storey]

Part of the wartime Lend-Lease deal was that, once the war was over, Britain and France would dismantle their colonial holdings. Whether this was an indication of an anti-colonial feeling by the Americans or just a long-term move to open up foreign markets for their 'economic empire' can be debated. Fighting communism certainly paved the way to open the door to the United States setting up a 'proxy-empire' supplying arms and goods along with political oversight to several nations world-wide.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

David,

I think in general the average Dutch citizen living in the Netherlands could not care less. After the war, everybody wanted to get back to normal life. People coming back from German and Japanese concentration camps were told not to feel sorry for themselves, as "everyone had had to live through the war" (...).

For citizens which had lived part or all of their lives in the Netherlands East Indies, many of whom had fought to defend it, their world had fallen apart. If they had lived through it, they moved to the Netherlands with no possessions other than the meagre clothes on their backs. My late father's family was among them.

For the Dutch government and businesses trying to prevent the loss of the colony was worth fighting a four year-long bloody war, as a lot of money was made and power gained over the course of 350 years of colonialism. The Dutch knew no better than that the NEI were a part of the Kingdom...

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Out of curiosity, what sort of sense do you have of the general feeling of the average Dutch citizen after the war, with regards to Indonesia? Would they have been quite happen with an independent Indonesia?

It seems so odd that Britain, France and Holland, from a political perspective after the war, were all so hell bent on reestablishing their concept of colonialism in Southeast Asia. It was such a costly mistake for all of them.