MG Battalion vehicle markings, Canadian Corps, 1940-42

[DougR]

I would be grateful if anyone can shed light on the identity of the unit of the Canadian Corps (1940-42) that used the serial number '47'.

I understand from information on www.canadiansoldiers.com that this was a Machine Gun Battalion, but am struggling to figure out which regiment they actually were.

According to Orders of Battle that I can find, MG Battalions for mid-1942 (but, by then, split between the two Canadian corps') included The Saskatoon Light Infantry in 1st Div, The Toronto Scottish in 2nd Div and The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa in 3rd Div.

Any insights appreciated!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Post 1942 the machine gun regiments in both infantry and armoured divisions were '64' (on black). '47' appears as an artillery number (on red over blue) in infantry divisions. Perhaps they were this from the first introduction of these flashes on arriving in England in 1940.

I don't have the full chart but '47' on black was used by the Royal Canadian Dragoons when they were attached to the 5th Armoured Division in 1941 as their armoured car regiment, and wore the same '47' for a time when they were assigned to the 1st Corps before adopting the later '44' on green over blue.

[DougR]

I am particularly interested in the earlier designations, as used during 1940-41.

This relates to '47' used in combination with Canadian Corps sign, so a corps unit. This would be consistent with corps' designations mentioned on https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...lemarkings.htm which indicates '45' to '47' (on plain red square) as being for MG battalions. I am keen to know which infantry regiments/battalions these would have been.

[Ed Storey]

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

For what it's worth, RCD Fox, 1st Canadian Corps from at least late 1942 or later. I have information the same 47 was worn when the RCD was attached to the newly arrived in the UK 5th Division. Why there was a carryover of the sign I can't say.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

Thank you Ed, then it must be from 1940, and most probably for Canadian Scottish infantry regiment.

[Ed Storey]

That is an interesting photograph and I am glad that you posted it.

Yes, when part of 5th Canadian Armoured Division the RCD's did use a white 47 on a black square.

While serving with the 1st Canadian Corps in Italy I have them recorded as being assigned a white 45 on a green over blue square.

Now there is a chance that for a short time from when they were reassigned from 5 Div to 1 Corps that the RCD's still retained the 47.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

Hi Ed,

This is the table featured on www.canadiansoldiers.com on which I am finding '47' for MG Battalions of Canadian Corps...

The table evidently relates to "Early in the war", but not sure which specific time period.

[Ed Storey]

I am familiar with that cart and the question I have is where did the source data come from as the RCASC should be green on left, red on right divided diagonally from top left to bottom right.

For 1942 I have the Royal Montreal Regiment (MG) as the Corps MG Battalion with a AoS of white 46 on a red square.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by DougR

I would be grateful if anyone can shed light on the identity of the unit of the Canadian Corps (1940-42) that used the serial number '47'.

I understand from information on www.canadiansoldiers.com that this was a Machine Gun Battalion, but am struggling to figure out which regiment they actually were.

Doug,

I don't know if I can provide a definitive answer for you, but I have the following.

When 1 Cdn Div embarked for England in December 1939, it contained three MG battalions. The reason being that, at the time, each infantry brigade contained an MG battalion. MG battalions later became a Corps asset, and no further MG battalions were sent overseas until April 1941.

The first three MG battalions were:
The Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.);
The Royal Montreal Regiment (M.G.); and
The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Once the MG battalions became Corps assets, they would have been assigned Corps serials. It's also best to remember that units, when numbering was involved, were done so in order of seniority. The seniority of the three battalions were as they're listed above with the SLI being the senior and the TSR being the junior.

I would also suggest the serials 45, 46 and 47 would have been assigned accordingly. So there is a very good chance that Corps serial 47 in 1940 would have been for The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Cheers,
Dan.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Doug,

I don't know if I can provide a definitive answer for you, but I have the following.

When 1 Cdn Div embarked for England in December 1939, it contained three MG battalions. The reason being that, at the time, each infantry brigade contained an MG battalion. MG battalions later became a Corps asset, and no further MG battalions were sent overseas until April 1941.

The first three MG battalions were:
The Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.);
The Royal Montreal Regiment (M.G.); and
The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Once the MG battalions became Corps assets, they would have been assigned Corps serials. It's also best to remember that units, when numbering was involved, were done so in order of seniority. The seniority of the three battalions were as they're listed above with the SLI being the senior and the TSR being the junior.

I would also suggest the serials 45, 46 and 47 would have been assigned accordingly. So there is a very good chance that Corps serial 47 in 1940 would have been for The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Cheers,
Dan.

Thank you for this information Dan!

It would indeed make sense that '47' was for The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across. The Canadian Corps vehicle marking and the absence of insignia on the uniform of the driver would suggest that the photo was taken c.1940. The tam o'shanter would be consistent with The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by DougR

Thank you for this information Dan!

It would indeed make sense that '47' was for The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across. The Canadian Corps vehicle marking and the absence of insignia on the uniform of the driver would suggest that the photo was taken c.1940. The tam o'shanter would be consistent with The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

It's hard to see in the photo, perhaps the original is better, but does the Corp patch have a dark band in the centre (ie. red/black/red). The white band at the top suggests a Corp insignia. Also, does the cap badge on the balmoral offer any clue? I know it's probably hard to judge but the Toronto Scottish badge is distinctive and even a blurry shape might be a giveaway. Apparently the Tor Scotts wore blue putties early on too. This assumes it is his car he's standing beside.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by DougR

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across.

Would you be able to provide a higher resolution image of the photograph?

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

It's hard to see in the photo, perhaps the original is better, but does the Corp patch have a dark band in the centre (ie. red/black/red). The white band at the top suggests a Corp insignia. Also, does the cap badge on the balmoral offer any clue? I know it's probably hard to judge but the Toronto Scottish badge is distinctive and even a blurry shape might be a giveaway. Apparently the Tor Scotts wore blue putties early on too. This assumes it is his car he's standing beside.

The Corps sign does not appear to have any dark band running through the middle, but looks to be a plain red square. I understand that this was the version used by the Canadian Corps in 1940, before the creation of the 2nd Canadian Corps.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to see the cap badge of the driver. He appears to be wearing 1937 Pattern webbing gaiters, rather than puttees. Nevertheless, based on the information already shared, I am convinced that he should be from The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

[Ed Storey]

That is a lovely early war photograph and helps build a better picture of the AoS markings employed at the time. Even without being able to see the insignia, I would support the theory that the fellow in the photograph was from the Toronto Scottish and could quite possibly be a driver. What is the source of the photograph and has it been cropped?

[Ed Storey]

I stumbled upon this painting this afternoon, I am not sure what it is called, but the artwork can be easily researched as the original is held by the CWM.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I stumbled upon this painting this afternoon, I am not sure what it is called, but the artwork can be easily researched as the original is held by the CWM.

Attachment 117129

I love that painting. It is correct in every respect down to the spacing of the screws. I suppose the flashes could be artistic license or fictitious due to wartime censoring but the photo I posted below says otherwise. One detail missing is the yellow and black bridge class sign that should be on the right side of the sloping front armour. For many years I questioned the accuracy of the rest of the markings if this required marking was omitted. But if you look at the photo you'll see the bridge class was placed on the armour in the wheel well under the right fender. So from the angle of the painting it would not be visible. One more accuracy that can be verified with photo evidence.

[Jordan Baker]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17449910434...&ul_noapp=true

[Ed Storey]

I wish people would be honest and up front with their posts for information as I dislike wasting my time to help someone pad an eBay listing. Shame on me as I have fallen for this duplicity before and I should have known better as the indicators were there. The requester had less than 10 posts and there was a hint that the image had been cropped but no reply was forthcoming when asked for a better resolution image and source of the photograph. What fooled me was this poster appeared to know more about AoS markings then your average "I'll join this forum to tap it for the free information" punter. Posting hi-resolution scans to forum of the front and back of the image would have lessoned the sting and been a gesture of thanks for the help; but I suspect this would probably have cut into the profit of selling the photograph - and we cannot have that.

I have relearned a valuable lesson and will be more cautious in the future.

[David Dunlop]

Hi Ed.

Annoying as it is, at least we now have a better idea of at least one Staff Car issued to the Toronto Scottish during the war, vis a vis make, model and WD Number early in the war. Might even be able to connect it with a specific CO.

David

[Jordan Baker]

Here are the pictures

[David Dunlop]

Thanks, Jordan.

What is the large circular object inboard of the left headlamp? It looks like either a blackout lamp with the horizontal folding screen, or perhaps a circular information plate with a line of letters across the centre of it.

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Thanks, Jordan.

What is the large circular object inboard of the left headlamp? It looks like either a blackout lamp with the horizontal folding screen, or perhaps a circular information plate with a line of letters across the centre of it.

David

Looks like a bridge class disc (painted over?) to me. The lettering may just be a crease in the photo. What I expect is the '47' may be painted on a metal plate and slid into its holder. The back would have 'PASS' on it.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I wish people would be honest and up front with their posts for information as I dislike wasting my time to help someone pad an eBay listing. Shame on me as I have fallen for this duplicity before and I should have known better as the indicators were there. The requester had less than 10 posts and there was a hint that the image had been cropped but no reply was forthcoming when asked for a better resolution image and source of the photograph. What fooled me was this poster appeared to know more about AoS markings then your average "I'll join this forum to tap it for the free information" punter. Posting hi-resolution scans to forum of the front and back of the image would have lessoned the sting and been a gesture of thanks for the help; but I suspect this would probably have cut into the profit of selling the photograph - and we cannot have that.

I have relearned a valuable lesson and will be more cautious in the future.

Hi Ed,

Please accept my apologies for any offence caused, there was certainly no ill intent in trying to find out more information related to the photo!

I am happy to share the attached scan of the whole photograph, and do very much appreciate the insights shared.

I should mention that I am not a dealer, but rather someone with a keen interest in military history. I do collect and have done for several years, but have now narrowed my focus to things particularly relating to the military service of members of my family tree. For the last year or so I have been selling some 'surplus' items from my collection on e-Bay, and more recently have been dabbling in buying & selling, as means of fundraising towards my child's university costs.

In putting items out there, I would like to give as much information as possible to potential buyers, who might have a particular interest. I have to admit that I also enjoy the 'detective' work of finding out about such photos.

Anyway, thank you for the information shared!

[Ed Storey]

Thanks Doug for the supplied image, your post and your e-mail to me.

ED