Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by MicS

Many thanks to Alex for posting the photos with the name. I agree that the name is AVALON. Eventhough the second and third letters are not absolutely clear, what few parts we can see of them leaves not doubt about their being V and A respectively.

I finally found the time to look up the Westminster Dragoons War Diary, and found the following AFV Casualty State as of 30 November, where T147955 is mentioned. This is all the luckier as AFV Cas States are a very rare occurrence in War Diaries. The Westminster Dragoons itself has them for only a couple of months.

This State reads:
A Sqn, T147955, Crab V, X Casualty, located at STOKT 9021, Transmission unserviceable, with the additional note (also applying to 3 other tank casualties) "recovery probably delayed owing to conditions":
Attachment 116598

The War Diary for 30 Nov states that "Cas one CRAB transmission jammed by heavy mine explosion". This Crab belonged to 2 Tp A Sqn:
Attachment 116599 Attachment 116600

A previous mention of a new type of damage by Riegelmine 43 mines had been made in the War Diary for 13 Oct regarding the attack on OVERLOON, where it was noted that "All mines in this area were R Mi 43 and not the usual Teller or Holz mine. They had less effect on tracks and bogies but two rotors of C Sqn CRABS were bent by blast. This had not been previously experienced." This explains AVALON's bent rotor.
Attachment 116601

On 1 Nov, an attempt was made to recover the tanks, during which Lt GS COOPER was killed by a Schumine. One may presume that this was one of the reasons why AVALON was abandoned rather than recovered, together with the extent of the damage it had suffered:
Attachment 116602


Michel

Hi Michel,

Thanks for these I have added to and cross checked against my census number database and found a couple of things.

I had T212594 as belonging to 22 Dragoons turret No. 47 via Vanguard To Victory by David Fletcher (details must have been forwarded to me as i do not have this book).

T147892 appears in a 27th Armd Brg workshops return ( sent to me by Tom O'Brien on WW2Talk)

Cheers

Kevin

[MicS]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Hi Michel,

Thanks for these I have added to and cross checked against my census number database and found a couple of things.

I had T212594 as belonging to 22 Dragoons turret No. 47 via Vanguard To Victory by David Fletcher (details must have been forwarded to me as i do not have this book).

T147892 appears in a 27th Armd Brg workshops return ( sent to me by Tom O'Brien on WW2Talk)

Cheers

Kevin

T212594 indeed appears on page 25 of David Fletcher's book, but it not attributed to 22 Dragoons, nor does it seem to wear any turret number. I assume it was photographed during tests and may not have been attached to any of the three flails regiments yet:
Crab T212594 - Vanguard of Victory p25.jpg

This turret No.47 might be the result of a confusion with IWM B5141, showing Cpl Barton's Crab No.47 of 1 Tp of B Sqn Westminster Dragoons on JIG GREEN West. I do not know of any other photo of this Crab which shows its Reg. No.:
IWM B 5141.jpg
© IWM (B 5141)

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

T212594 indeed appears on page 25 of David Fletcher's book, but it not attributed to 22 Dragoons, nor does it seem to wear any turret number. I assume it was photographed during tests and may not have been attached to any of the three flails regiments yet:
Attachment 116644

I agree....plenty of Crab pictures in the book and some seemingly of the same one, but just like Michel I can't see any turret numbers, nor an AoS.
T212594 also appears in the IWM film IWM A70 5-1. It looks like the picture that Michel posted from David Fletchers book is taken the same day, during the same trial.

T212594 Trial.jpg T212594 Trial-2.jpg

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060019366

[Maurice Donckers]

At home I have a book with 2 IWM pictures taken in Overloon during the battle , these are also M4A4`s , one has a black T number , to me it looks as if they are also command tanks from the 79th , any ideas if they are together with Avalon?

here is one of the pictures

11.jpg

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

At home I have a book with 2 IWM pictures taken in Overloon during the battle , these are also M4A4`s , one has a black T number , to me it looks as if they are also command tanks from the 79th , any ideas if they are together with Avalon?

here is one of the pictures

Attachment 116647

This is IWM B10820, showing Sherman V T147839 (or maybe T147639) of the Westminster Dragoons, probably of HQ 'A' Sqn. The T-number is apparently still in its original dark blue colour as painted before shipment from the USA:

© IWM (B 10820)

One more photo of another HQ tank of the Westminster Dragoons in Overloon:

© IWM (B 10819)

plus a Crab (not AVALON, because of the different gun mantlet):

© IWM (B 10818)

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

"The story of Westminster Dragoons" sadly doesn't have too much detailed info on the battle in Broekhuizen, but I have to read the rest to see if it includes any info on census numbers and nicknames of tanks.

My previous comment on the "story of the Westminster Dragoons" was a bit blunt. Contrary to what I wrote, it does have detailed info on the battle of Broekhuizen, but it doesn't include names and census numbers of tanks I was looking for, and limited info on crew names. It is however a very interesting read and available online in PDF form.http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...pe_1944-45.pdf

It lists that no.4 troop A squadron under command of William Hall was in Tilburg from 28 to 30 October, with 5 flails and a Command Tank manned by Capt. Squirrell. I found the pictures attached in the local Tilburg Archive, which has to be this group
Even though we now know that Avalon is not in this troop, but in no.2 troop in stead, I decided to post the images, as they give a nice view of the storages boxes and extra chains on the side of the hull, just like the one fitted to Avalon.

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I actually think the left hand side box on Avalon in the early museum days was an ex-wading stack used as a box for spare chain, which I think I have seen on more Crabs, especially during the fighting in Normandy.

source:https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg.nl/zoek-een-foto/

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

My previous comment on the "story of the Westminster Dragoons" was a bit blunt. Contrary to what I wrote, it does have detailed info on the battle of Broekhuizen, but it doesn't include names and census numbers of tanks I was looking for, and limited info on crew names. It is however a very interesting read and available online in PDF form.http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...pe_1944-45.pdf

It lists that no.4 troop A squadron under command of William Hall was in Tilburg from 28 to 30 October, with 5 flails and a Command Tank manned by Capt. Squirrell. I found the pictures attached in the local Tilburg Archive, which has to be this group
Even though we now know that Avalon is not in this troop, but in no.2 troop in stead, I decided to post the images, as they give a nice view of the storages boxes and extra chains on the side of the hull, just like the one fitted to Avalon.



source:https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg.nl/zoek-een-foto/

Hi Alex

T212594
I am not sure where this match came from, perhaps I came across it on another film and at a different angle showing turret number and census number. My census number database I started over 30 years ago so it could have come from anywhere.

Anyway I do have some other Westminster Dragoon census numbers.

Crabs
T148041 C Sqn turret No. 85 – Warfare Through The Lens – E18418
T147395
T147892
T148069
T148122 All shown in 27th Armoured Brigade Workshop returns

Some unmatched Crabs
T147988 – The Tank Museum
T148450 – British Pathe 2101.07.021
T148844 – British Pathe 2115.01.423
T149886 – Vanguard To Victory – D. Fletcher
T150458, T263318 – The Universal Tank, pt 2
T147393, T147805, T150153 – Courtesy Colin Clark
T212296 - ?

Cheers

Kevin

[MicS]

Great photos of Lt Hall's 4 Tp in Tilburg Alex!

All 5 Crabs are visible, led by Lt Hall's. He is the one with the moustache, leaning on the gun on this photo:

012238 - Crabs 4Tp A Sqn WD, Bredaseweg Tilburg, 27 Oct 44 - RA Tilburg - Ls WS Hall leaning on .jpg

Just ahead of his tank is another Sherman which must be Capt Squirrell's command tank. The stowed jerrycans on the left rear of the tank might mean it is the same tank as on IWM B10819, although of course the other command tanks in A Sqn might have used the same stowage method:

012236 - Crabs 4Tp A Sqn WD, Bredaseweg Tilburg, 27 Oct 44 - RA Tilburg - Notes.jpg

Finally, the second Crab in the line might have a name on its side, but the graffiti and low quality of the photo make it completely illegible:

012237 - Crab 4Tp A Sqn WD, Bredaseweg Tilburg, 27 Oct 44 - RA Tilburg.jpg

Michel

[Maurice Donckers]

here is another one , maybe been on here before .

[Maurice Donckers]

The above M4A4 must have been made before Feb . 1943 , because the lifting hooks still have the plate under them , Deleted from feb 1943 , SpitfireIV also has the late gun shield , no splash protection for final drive bolts , and the plates under the lifting hooks . Also spare track holders are in this position , Spitfire IV is produced in jan 1943

[MicS]

It must be a remanufactured tank, originally built before November 1942 (direct vision hoods). Features typical of remanufactured tanks include the add-on hatch guard armour plates and the gun travel lock.


Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

here is another one , maybe been on here before .

Terrific picture Maurice! Any idea when and where it was taken?

I am betting on a direct vision hull as well. Attached is a picture of another "mysterious" Sherman, Argyll Roger (or Argyle as it says on the side today!) from a similar angle for comparison

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Terrific picture Maurice! Any idea when and where it was taken?

Supposed to be Kampen NL in 1945 according to this:
https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...717b464/media/

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by MicS

led by Lt Hall's. He is the one with the moustache, leaning on the gun on this photo:

Thanks for the confirmation Michel!....I was presuming Hall was in the picture, I just wasn't sure which one he was.

Originally Posted by MicS

The stowed jerrycans on the left rear of the tank might mean it is the same tank as on IWM B10819, although of course the other command tanks in A Sqn might have used the same stowage method:

Good eye....I hadn't noticed that. Who knows...it might indeed be the same tank. Sadly the picture isn't any larger.....or better quality for that matter..

https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg....&rows=1&page=5