Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[David Dunlop]

Good Morning Hanno and Alex.

Curiosity about the Panzerfaust got to me this evening and I did a little reading up on it. An interesting evening.

First discovery, based on battle damage analysis from the USA, Russia, England and Canada was that tank losses from the Panzerfaust earned a very distant 4th place. Number One tank killer was another tank or anti tank gun. Number Two was aircraft. Number three was mines and then the Panzerfaust. It seems its terrifying reputation far exceeded its wartime effectiveness. It was noted to have been most effective in heavily wooded and urban environments, where good cover for the operator was provided. Even in those situations, however, it was noted that the firing gave away the location of the operator due to the black powder propellant charge used.

A well-disciplined tank crew could deal with a Panzerfaust hit in most instances. If fuel, ammunition, or critical mechanicals were hit you had a problem, but records showed more crew were lost to small arms fire exiting a tank following a Panzerfaust hit, than were actually killed by the hit itself.

The molten metal jet created by a Panzerfaust ran out of energy about half way across the inside of a Sherman. The penetration hole is definitive. It tapers from exterior impact point to its breakthrough point on the inside. The force of the jet breaking through the hull may tear metal fitting off the interior hull wall, but does not result in a spall of metal hull being torn free, like a BB Gun pellet on a plate of glass. You would not be able to push an object through a Panzerfaust hole in a tank hull because of this taper.

By comparison, a 20mm solid shot round would have a relatively consistent hole through the metal it hit and would also produce a circular spall on the inside wall.

Studies in Canada and the United States showed adding pieces of track to the outside of a tank hull made no difference at all to Panzerfaust penetrations. Minimum distance for supplemental armour to be effective was 12 inches off the hull and ideally 20 to 30 inches. Interestingly, chain link fencing was the most effective protection at 30 inches.

One account I read of a British Tank Troop overnighting in a town square after being cut off by a German Counterattack. The next morning, the tank to the right of the Troop Commanders exploded in flames suddenly. The Commander had all crews start up and then a Panzerfaust round struck the right side of his turret, just forward of him. He recalled a blinding flash and a piece of kit on the wall hitting him on the forehead and knocking his beret off. A few seconds later a second round struck the lower right front hull and the jet penetrated as far as the gearbox, slightly damaging it. By then the building the shots had come from had been identified and was promptly levelled. The Troop withdrew under fire from the town without further losses. The Commander did comment, however, that their Co-Driver was not with them on that mission and had he been, he would have lost both legs.

It would be interesting to study the hits on the right side of the Crab at Overloon to confirm they are Panzerfaust and to also see exactly where the hits were in relation to crew and critical internal components. If they are all indeed Panzerfaust hits, my guess is what we are seeing now is an accumulation of battle damage over some unknown period of time, and not the result of a cluster of German Infantry shooting everything they had available in a few short minutes at the Crab in an attempt to knock it out.

A careful study of the hits would likely indicate which one or ones were most likely to have ended its action at Overloon.

My thoughts are that a Crab Tank probably drew as much attention from the Germans as a Firefly did when spotted. They would have been a big threat to their defences.

As I said, an interesting evening.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Good morning David,

Reading your posting about the Panzerfaust, I recalled the history of the King Tiger #213 currently on display at La Gleize - (also see this link). After the fighting it was used by US troops to try out the Panzerfaust - see some footage here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestroyedTa...a_knocked_out/

There is a difference between a tank being used for target practice on a range post-war, and a using it to familiarize troops with enemy (or even: own) weapons during wartime. In the former case it would be stripped for spares and set up on range for safe shooting. In the latter case it was a much more impromptu manner, probably after finding a cache of enemy weapons and a knocked out tank nearby. Look at the footage at La Gleize above, I wonder if the US soldiers did much more than shout out "fire in the hole" or similar to warn bystanders of their dangerous game!
The latter is what happened with the La Gleize King Tiger and that is what may have happened to our Sherman Crab.

Looking at the holes punched by the Panzerfaust, they are considerably larger than the holes in Avalon's sides. Looking at various then & now photos of the La Gleize Tiger I wonder if all those holes were punched in by Panzerfausts - it they really were, it must have been a mighty weapon.

Interestingly, none of the holes visible after the training can be seen today. All carefully filled to restore it to its after the battle condition?

a186b7d6f9261ff55e558c099e98274f.jpg a41b9ecad38eb88ed60e9077c244ea41.jpg La-Gleize-Stoumont-king-tiger-tank-II-impact.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Studies in Canada and the United States showed adding pieces of track to the outside of a tank hull made no difference at all to Panzerfaust penetrations. Minimum distance for supplemental armour to be effective was 12 inches off the hull and ideally 20 to 30 inches. Interestingly, chain link fencing was the most effective protection at 30 inches.

In February 1945, First Canadian Army undertook a number of experiments using a derelict Sherman and captured Panzerfaust. These trials were later continued by Canadian Military Headquarters in cooperation with the British Directorate of Tank Design (DTD). Is this the testing you refer to?

"Allied Trials to Counteract Panzerfaust Attacks" by Roger V. Lucy: https://milart.blog/2014/08/30/allie...faust-attacks/

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

The molten metal jet created by a Panzerfaust

Small correction, to try and get rid of this common misconception Shaped charges don’t melt the metal, it stays sold but flows like a liquid because of the high relative velocities involved. Of course the material heats up because of the friction between the shaped charge’s liner and the armour plate, but the charge doesn’t actually melt anything. Tests with the liner being cut into sections and fired into water resulted in pieces corresponding to the cut liner being recovered, without having melted together.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

By comparison, a 20mm solid shot round would have a relatively consistent hole through the metal it hit and would also produce a circular spall on the inside wall.

Last year, Alex shared photos of Avalon’s interior with me, and looking at them, I see spall scars around the penetrations and rounded, slightly bulged areas in other places where I suppose a round didn’t make it all the way through.

To me it looks like someone fired an automatic cannon at it, ±20 mm calibre. Perhaps a German AA gun, perhaps an aircraft? The slight downward angle would point to the latter, but whether it was German or British is anyone’s guess, I suppose.

[David Herbert]

It seems to me that the large impacts shown on the King Tiger in Hanno's post #17 are solid shot impacts, not even HESH or APDS, particularly those in the colour photo. There are small ones showing what could be Panzerfaust but those would show radiating marks around the entry side of the hole where the shrapnel from the outside of the shaped charge gouged the armour. Photos are not clear enough to show either way.

Similarly I don't see any sign of these very distinctive radial marks on the photos of Avalon though the marks on the relatively thin cover plate on the back of the flail drive box are similar. This piece is, I think, not armour so would have been easily marked by shrapnel from nearby hits. Also the hits shown in the photos have a significant bulge around the entry where the metal has flowed sideways. This would have been much less from a shaped charge hit.

If the interior of Avalon is as described above by Jakko then I agree with him that the many similar holes in Avalon were caused by automatic 20mm or similar fire. It is still possible that it was hit by a Panzerfaust but I don't see such a hit in the photos and have never personally inspected the tank.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Last year, Alex shared photos of Avalon’s interior with me, and looking at them, I see spall scars around the penetrations and rounded, slightly bulged areas in other places where I suppose a round didn’t make it all the way through.

To me it looks like someone fired an automatic cannon at it, ±20 mm calibre. Perhaps a German AA gun, perhaps an aircraft? The slight downward angle would point to the latter, but whether it was German or British is anyone’s guess, I suppose.

While I am not an ballistics/munitions expert, comparing the hits on Avalon with other Panzerfaust hits I would be more inclined to think these are projectile hits. Like you say, around 20-mm?

If it is 20-mm, it could be the British captured a German 20-mm AA gun (there were plenty of those around), and tried it out on one of their knocked out tanks? Just like the American soldiers did with the Panzerfausts in La Gleize. This sort of activity would not be reorded in war diaries, but another may well have been. It is a distant possibility, but if it happened it was must have been recorded in the test records somewhere:

The Skink AA tank did not go into production, but two of the three prototypes were shipped to Europe in 1945. On 4 Febrary 1945 one was assigned to the 6th Canadian Armoured regiment (6CAR/1st Hussars and saw action in an infantry support role near Kalkar. It was then passed to the 22nd Canadian Armoured Regiment (22CAR/Canadian Grenadier Guards) in the battle of Hochwald gap.
Roger Lucy noted: "From 6 February to 11 March 1945, the Skink visited all but one of the Canadian armoured regiments - from Nijmegen to the Cleve area - frequently engaging the German army. All units found it to be a valuable asset but no enemy aircraft presented itself to the Skink's guns and its main function was to flush out stubborn pockets of enemy infantry and force their surrender."

Now, seeing that Kalkar and Kleve are aprox. 50 kms (north-)east of Overloon, the 6CAR may have passed through the Overloon area and did some test firing on one of the many tank wrecks in the area?
Firing the quad 20-mm Polsten guns at the Sherman Crab would coincide with the "very shallow downward angle hit" which Alex described. It is a long shot, maybe even very speculative, but it may be worth looking into?


Photo of a Tank AA, 20 mm Quad, Skink at Lulworth Army Camp, GB, Fall 1944. Notice the 20mm Polsten guns and T54E1 VVSS Sherman tracks and sprocket. Note: I do not know whether this is the actual Skink deployed to NW Europe, but it is very likely as having regular medium tank type tracks, rather than CDP track, would not cause supply problems while in NW Europe.

Skink at Lulworth Art. School 1944.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

This document surfaced after I posted this thread on the Sherman Register FB page. It was found by Rik Teernstra at: http://www.geschiedenismelderslo.nl/...en_apr2001.pdf

Thanks Hanno (and Rik!), even though that document and the other wiki one probably won't give us the true identity and fate of Avalon, it does give us some very interesting reading on the battle!

Some areas of the former Operation Aintree battlefield have been surveyed to assess the risk of unexploded ordnance. Maybe surveys like this will yield additional info?

Clever idea Hanno! I hadn't thought of that and will look into this.
David's suggestion of going there with a metal detector is something I have thought about multiple times, but never did as I don't have the kit and knowledge, nor do I know what the rules are. It could however confirm if there is shrapnel in the ground, confirming you are on the right spot.
The Broekhuizen location is documented, but the other possible location in Boxmeer is a bit more troublesome, as I haven't found an exact location in or around Boxmeer yet.

Interestingly, none of the holes visible after the training can be seen today. All carefully filled to restore it to its after the battle condition?

I think they are two different tanks. The "monument" Tiger had a crippled barrell, but did retain it's right hand track. The picture you posted with the white camo is what is now the monument tank. The other is the one they used as a target, but I have to agree with David that only the small holes would be Panzerfaust, while the others would be normal rounds.

Allied forces purposely testing weapons on an important piece of kit as a Crab; I don't see that happen. Even if it's beyond repair, the tank could provide valuable parts as engine, gearbox, transmission, tracks, bogies etc.

To me it looks like someone fired an automatic cannon at it, ±20 mm calibre. Perhaps a German AA gun, perhaps an aircraft? The slight downward angle would point to the latter, but whether it was German or British is anyone’s guess, I suppose.

The downward angle is so shallow, that apart from an aircaft hit, I guess it could also have been a level shot, if the tank drove through a crater at the time.

Similarly I don't see any sign of these very distinctive radial marks on the photos of Avalon though the marks on the relatively thin cover plate on the back of the flail drive box are similar.

David, thanks for sharing the interesting panzerfaust info. I will try to put up some more pictures of the penetractions and the inside of Avalon tonight.....maybe that will help determine the weapon that caused them.
When I visited the museum a few months ago I did bring a "christmas" drill bit, but maybe I should have brought some fast curing clay
I do seem to remember there were some radial marks around some of the penetrations.

Hanno; I would be exciting if there was a link between Avalon and the Skink, but again I don't think it's likely that allied forces would purposely shoot on their own mine flail.

Thanks everyone!

Alex

[David Dunlop]

Alex.

Following is a copy of an email I sent to Hanno earlier this morning. Thought I should post it here as well.

The more I look at the photos posted, the more questions I have and the more I start to see.

The hub of that flail is really banged up. Perhaps enough to have put it out of balance? Some of the control arms on the right side for the Flail also appear to be broken, missing or disconnected? Again, I wonder if all is connected to having hit a mine.

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

In a couple of the photos you posted showing the left side of the Crab, just forward of this tall box, there is a dark rectangular mark. Hard to tell if it is where something was fitted to the hull at one time or possibly a marking in a dark paint like a four or five letter word. Part of a WD number in white can be seen further aft on the left side.

A long storage box appears on the front of the Crab behind the flail assembly in some photos and then appears to be on the ground in front of the Crab, and then disappears. Storage for spare flail chains perhaps?

The turret is always in the same position. I cannot imagine at least one person in all these years not having tried to move it. Any indications it still works and it is just being kept ‘as found’, or is it jammed?

I wonder if war diaries for COOKIE might explain why it was abandoned and shed any light on the Crab? Both seem to be facing opposite directions. At Overloon, what would have been the general direction flow of the battle and how does that fit in with the orientation of the Crab and COOKIE? Both vehicles may not have been lost at the same time, but that, sadly is how my mind wanders at times. Sigh!

David

Hello Hanno.

This was the first article I found on the Panzerfausts and I ended up branching out from it and its references.

https://warspot.net/132-the-tank-s-hidden-foe

My thoughts on the Overloon Crab at this point are that based on what appears to be its original location, with the front right corner sitting so low, it hit a mine that may have damaged the Flail Drive in some way, putting it out of action. I am not certain how, or if, the Flail Drive interfaces with the Shermans main propulsion system, but perhaps damage to the Flail Drive jammed the Sherman power train and the Crab crew had to hunker down and wait it out, abandoning the Crab as soon as able to do so,

The record of this Crab has to be in one of the diaries of the Regiments using Crabs at Overloon. That is not the type of equipment you lose in combat and fail to log. We probably just have not yet found the right diaries.

And from the German side, Overloon was a very important battle. As chaotic as it might have been from their perspective, knocking out a Crab would warrant mention by them in their war diaries when time permitted. The risk with this, however, is whether or not any or all war diaries from their side survived the war.

Alex mentioned the hits on the right side of the Crab showed a low angle of elevation. This would certainly be consistent with any single, or multi-gunned 20mm cannon the Germans were using in vehicle mounted equipments. Be also interesting to map out the hits to see if any linearity of the overall hits can be identified. Easy for a single barrelled, or twin barrelled weapon but gets more difficult with a general burst from a Quad.

I wonder what the landscape was like to the right of the Crab where it came to rest? Would it have been open enough for a large vehicle with 20mm weapons on board to have had a clear field of fire at the flank of the Crab?

Funny how one vehicle can raise sooo many questions?

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi David D.,

When I read your email I also saw your reply here. Best to vent our thoughts and findings centrally, the more people can think and work collaboratively the better.

I would not focus on the terrain you see in the pictures. While the museum grounds were established on part of the former battlefield, many of the large exhibits came from the surrounding area, Avalon and Cookie included. I believe much of the transportation was done by the British Army as they had an interest in establishing the museum. It was formally opened by a high ranking British General one year after the war ended.

After our pondering about the peppering of the RH hull side, the primary reason Avalon was put out of action may well be due to mines. In the report above we can read some areas were heavily mined and the mines caused considerable losses among men and machines.

Seeing Avalon in the metal many decades ago the damage to the flail rotor struck me. I don’t recall seeing the damage to the RH side. It’s RH track has been missing since the war, it may well have been broken by a mine.
The Churchill on display at the museum has its hull bottom ripped out by a mine and standing inside, I tried to visualize what happened to the crew. Gruesome thought. But that is the very reason these mangled artifacts of war were put in the museum - so we would never forget about the atrocities of war.

Summing up, we would need to get access to the war diaries of the two regiments mentioned above and see which Crabs were lost due to mines and/or enemy fire.

Let’s keep this flowing, something good must come out of it.

43265B2F-C7A0-46EF-A35E-40AA3A23C062.jpg Avalon-museum2_redlined.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

The hub of that flail is really banged up. Perhaps enough to have put it out of balance? Some of the control arms on the right side for the Flail also appear to be broken, missing or disconnected? Again, I wonder if all is connected to having hit a mine.

the primary reason Avalon was put out of action may well be due to mines.

I agree; I think before being put out of action, Avalon was already crippled from mine damage. I think the flail jammed and the drive shaft on the right snapped. Today half of the drive shaft is hanging from the right hand side, but in the early days the other end of the shaft was also still present. Maybe the mine damage and it loosing a track meant it was a sitting duck for any German weapons.

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

I actually think the left hand side box on Avalon in the early museum days was an ex-wading stack used as a box for spare chain, which I think I have seen on more Crabs, especially during the fighting in Normandy. It seems not all crabs had the chalk boxes or the later arrow system.
The long box seen in some pictures is the standard British tool box seen on Sherman V's. I think Avalon might have had two as I seem to see a crushed one on the rear of the tank as well. I think the other one might have been welded on the left hand hull side, behind the other box, as there are still some welds in that location today. The right hand hull side also shows some welds.....these are closer spaced; I think this might have been where the standard British turret box might have been located when it was hit by multiple rounds. I couldn't find any remains (angle iron) or welded on the rear of the turret that would indicate the box to ever been fitted there.

The turret is always in the same position. I cannot imagine at least one person in all these years not having tried to move it. Any indications it still works and it is just being kept ‘as found’, or is it jammed?

Exactly my thought! I presume it's jammed. Ten years ago the museum gave me permission to enter the tank, but I didn't try to turn the turret!

I would not focus on the terrain you see in the pictures.

Well David did got me thinking! All sources say the tank was moved from the battlefield to the museum, but I agree with David that the look of the terrain in some of the early pictures is somewhat similar to what the resting place of the tank would have looked like after some exploding mines! Than again....I guess moving around a Crab without a right hand track in soft sand, will give a similar look.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

In a couple of the photos you posted showing the left side of the Crab, just forward of this tall box, there is a dark rectangular mark. Hard to tell if it is where something was fitted to the hull at one time or possibly a marking in a dark paint like a four or five letter word. Part of a WD number in white can be seen further aft on the left side.

You mean this? That's strange, don't think I've seen this type of fitting before.

The dark rectangular mark could be the name or another marking painted out, that happened quite often after a vehicle was struck off strength.

Avalon-museum_redlined.jpg