Post-War British Ram Kangaroo Question

david moore · #1 06-05-20, 02:43

David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 06-05-20, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by david moore

David - is this the photo you meant? From the book Steam for Scrap. Poor quality I'm afraid but it just shows the tank at the right of the picture. The caption says that it is one of three Sherman tanks sent to Cashmores and that they were flail tanks. The yard is (was) at Newport, Mon - at least it was Monmouthshire when I lived in Cardiff in the 60's!

David, attached below is a slightly better version of your picture. With all those train enthusiasts taking pictures of rolling stock there muct be more pictures of those "army tanks" lurking in the background.

"British Rail Riddles Standard Class 5MT 73116, being scrapped in 1967. Death amindst the carnage for BR Riddles Standard Class "5MT" 4-6-0 No.73116 "Iseult" being torn apart at Cashmore's Scrapyard, Newport, 06/67."

BR_Riddles_Standard_Class_5MT_73116_(8255953496).jpg

Source: By Hugh Llewelyn - 73116Uploaded by Oxyman, CC BY-SA 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=24383308

David Herbert · #3 06-05-20, 11:12

Well done David and Hanno ! I hadn't expected it to found so quickly. Yes that's the photo, very sad to see the 5MT being cut up.

Judging by the shed and the crane in the background, the Ram is exactly where I saw it in 1981. It is obviously the same one as the 'modifications' are the same. When I visited Cashmores there was no suggestion of any other tanks so presumably they had long since been cut up. This one had only survived because they had used it as a dead weight to winch against. There were cables around both middle bogies with shackles on them and a huge winch at the base of the big crane in the background of the book photo. I wonder if the steam guys took any earlier photos ?

A lot of the big scrap dealers that got the big contracts to scrap the British railway system when it was radically cut back in the 1960s had previously cut up vast amounts of WW2 surplus armour. There are many stories of fields full of tanks etc being cut as there was simply no use for them once smaller friendly countries had been supplied. There must be photos of these in the UK similar to the photos that have come to light of the Deelan (? sorry Hanno) dump in Holland.

David

Hanno Spoelstra · #4 10-05-20, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Regarding Ram ARVII production,

There were definitely more than one built because I have seen the remains of two. Hopefully photos below, sorry that they are rather poor.

The more intact one was at Cashmore's scrap yard in south Wales in March 1981. Someone showed me a photo in a book about scrapping railway rolling stock (no idea which book but I seem to remember it was right at the back). I visited and managed to get in and take photos. I expressed an interest in buying it but was told it was too useful as an anchor point when winching scrap around the yard but they would let me know if it became available. A year later the yard had been cleared and when I found my previous contact he said that he didn't think I was serious. What was there was in reasonable condition but there was no visible army registration.

The destroyed one was on Sennybridge AT2 range in August 1988. It was totally destroyed but obviously not the same one as it still had its overhanging rear armour.

Hello David,

Thanks for sharing your sightings. I recall you telling me about that Ram ARV II at Cashmore's Scrapyard, not about the one at Sennybridge AT2 range.

It is confusing that the period documentation refers to Ram Mk.I and Mk.II ARVs which refer to the type of tank which was converted, rather than the type of ARV.

Attached is part of the listing of Ram tanks Struck Off Strength (S.O.S.) and transferred to the British Army in June 1945. It lists the census numbers of the ARVs converted from Ram Mk I and Ram Mk II.

Ram_tank_SOS_to_British_06-1945_misc.jpg

David Herbert · #5 10-05-20, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It is confusing that the period documentation refers to Ram Mk.I and Mk.II ARVs which refer to the type of tank which was converted, rather than the type of ARV.

Yes, but note that Ram I and Ram II ARVs with side doors are all Ram ARV Mk.Is and all Ram ARV Mk.IIs are built on very late Ram IIs. and are basically the same conversion as Churchill ARVIIs.

To further confuse things a lot of the early official correspondence about Rams refers to them as "Canadian M3 tanks" and for a long time Sextons were referred to as "Ram 25pdr SP".

David

david moore · #6 10-05-20, 23:56

Not a Ram I know but another Cashmore shot from February 1969 showing not only another standard 5MT ready for slaughter but a Churchill? The caption again refers to it as "a flail tank".

David Herbert · #7 11-05-20, 01:59

Thanks David.

The Churchill is a bridgelayer conversion. You can see the massive low pressure hydraulic cylinder and part of the very long ram rod on top of the tank at the extreme right of the photo. Also part of the bridge launching structure on the front of the tank directly above the loco smokebox. The top of the fighting compartment seems to have been cut out, there was originally a slightly raised commander's position with vision ports where the turret had originally been. By 1981 when I was there there were no remnants of steam locos to be seen.

David