Morris-Commercial C8 Gun Tractor body id please?

[Rob van Meel]

As I am trying to get a publication together on Morris-Commercial C8-AT, I have been active trying to get my information ordered in a clearer format than the loose sheets of paper etc.
Here is the first version on the Morris 17-pdr tractor:

After my purchase of a running Morris-Commercial truck, I wanted to find out more about it. The internet as we know it now, did not exist, and one had to search very hard to find anything. In 1997, the year that I bought the Morris, luck would have it that at Oosterbeek, arriving in the dark after the trip up from Tilburg, and stopping for a drink at the Schoonoord, out comes John Mills, a 1st Anti-Tank battery crew member of the 1st Airborne Division, saying: That’s a Morris. After a drink and a chat we agreed to meet up the next day and take them for a spin. Next morning meeting up at their hotel, the veterans of X-troop, 1 AL AT Bt, clearly stated that my truck was identical to their ex-Portee. Regrettably we never found time to discuss the many questions that I now can phrase.

With the change of role from 2-pdr Portee to Gun Tractor, the War Office nomenclature for that vehicle would have been changed. My Morris came in 1997 with the census number H1743493, painted in light blue on the vehicle locker/storage box on both sides of the tractor and on the back. It already was there when the previous owner repainted the tractor and the census number. This number came from a block of census numbers allocated to ‘rebuilt tractors’. It may well have been put there after the rebuilt/modifications in 1943.

In 2001 I got ‘The allocation by central census of “B” Vehicle W.D. Numbers, Royal Army Ordnance Corps, Central Ordnance depot Chilwell’ and re-arranged the numerical entries into a vehicle and reference ordered listing, the following contracts came up for the Portee:
V3772 ref. 216 66 L4310852-917 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee
V3950 ref. 220 671 L4304354-5024 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee Mk. II
V3950 ref. 220 1029 L4305025-6053 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee Mk. III
V3950 ref. 266 20 L4310918-37 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee Mk. III
V3957 ref. 227 219 L4349636-854 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee
T322 ref. 235 600 L4566669-7268 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee
T322 ref. 252 800 L4567269-8068 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee
V4538 ref. 261 500 L4571261-760 Lorry 30cwt 4x4 A/Tk. Portee
According to this list, some 3905 Morris-Commercial Gun Portees were built to be equipped with the 2-pndr Anti tank gun. And that is where it all stopped for a while but for some hear-say on that both Morris-Commercial C8 Portees and C9’s were converted.

At the War & Peace show in Beltring in 2018 we were discussing C8-AT’s as one does, and out of the blue some photographs of a MCC contract card for contract S.2831 given the following information materialised.
The card has a quite interesting note on the back: listing the total of converted ex-Portees:
T322 ref. 235 114 (S/M/2028)
V3772 ref. 216 18
V3950 ref. 220/266 397
V3957 ref. 227 207
V4171 ref. 252 283 (this is contract T322 in the Chilwell list)
V4538 ref. 261 168
Total 1187
V4997 ref. 329 138
New total 1325
Authors note: contract V3957 seems to have been for both Portees as C9/B and Predictors
I have a spare parts list for contract 294/V.4171(Con. 9B). 4171/252/1 is rubber stamped on the cover. (4171 is contract number, 252 is reference and /1 indicates a parts list). However contract V.4171, dated February 1942, is not in my RAOC Chilwell ‘B’ vehicle census list.

As the contract reference is identical to the one for the second T322 contract, and the contract reference numbers are unique within a specific manufacturer listing, it could well be that this is a typing error or missed alternation, in that T322 ref. 252 should have been V4171 ref. 252.

Apart from Portees, some C9/Predictors have been converted too! During an internet discussion late 2018 two more MCC contract cards came up, with possibly this information:
-Contract V3957 card dated 24-5-1940: for 207 Portees: the card indicates that this was for:
234 Morris C9/B Bofors SPMS CR 370 (ref. 320*) with census No’s. S 4550990- 4551224 and 234 Morris C9/P Predictors CR 371 (ref. 321*) with census No’s. S 4550755- 4550989.
On the same card: on 26-11-1942 the conversion to Tractor 17-pdr A/T gun to contract S3270 of 207 out of the 234 Predictors was ordered. In the Chilwell list of allocated census numbers both contracts V3957 ref. 227 for Portees and V3957 ref 320/321 are listed.

-The card for contract V4997, dated 4-2-1942 for 2030 Tractors, 4x4 FA M/L (type C8 Mk. III)
seems to have been changed into:
1015 MCC A.A. Predictors No. 3 M/L C9/P (ref. 319*) with census No’s . S4898826-4899840
and 1015 MCC S.P. Bofors C9/B CR319 (ref. 372*) with census No’s. S4899841 to 4900855.
Some 138 are on the list of converted into C8 Tractor for 17-pdr.

Several years ago a fellow Dutch Morris C8-AT owner gave me a technical drawing by Morris-Commercial Cars Ltd., Birmingham, drawing number BD2241 on General arrangement of C8/FWD 17 pounder gun tractor (less winch) converted from C8/A.T. Based on my Morris and that paper, one could assume that the conversion from Portee into Tractor for the 17-pdr would comprise of:
-the tilting of the rear body to be blocked.
-removal of winch.
-the removal of the two petrol tanks and fitting a single petrol tank in the rear section
-fitting of seating arrangement for four crew members in rear.
-spare4 wheel support fitted to either front bumper (Airborne) or above petrol tank.
-fitting of lock-up in rear body.
-fitting of 2 lock-ups replacing of the petrol tanks on either side. (not on all Airborne)
-possibly fitting Stewart-Warner electrical braking instrument for 17-pdr.
-and changing the census number prefix from L for Lorry to H for Tractor.
Note Chilwell gives the following block for rebuilt lorries and tractors: 1700000-1799999

* reference numbers are given in the Chilwell allocation of census numbers list

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Rob van Meel

At the War & Peace show in Beltring in 2018 we were discussing C8-AT’s as one does, and out of the blue some photographs of a MCC contract card for contract S.2831 given the following information materialised.

The card has a quite interesting note on the back: listing the total of converted ex-Portees:
T322 ref. 235 114 (S/M/2028)
V3772 ref. 216 18
V3950 ref. 220/266 397
V3957 ref. 227 207
V4171 ref. 252 283 (this is contract T322 in the Chilwell list)
V4538 ref. 261 168
Total 1187
V4997 ref. 329 138
New total 1325
Authors note: contract V3957 seems to have been for both Portees as C9/B and Predictors
I have a spare parts list for contract 294/V.4171(Con. 9B). 4171/252/1 is rubber stamped on the cover. (4171 is contract number, 252 is reference and /1 indicates a parts list). However contract V.4171, dated February 1942, is not in my RAOC Chilwell ‘B’ vehicle census list.

As the contract reference is identical to the one for the second T322 contract, and the contract reference numbers are unique within a specific manufacturer listing, it could well be that this is a typing error or missed alternation, in that T322 ref. 252 should have been V4171 ref. 252.

Your listing for contract T322 makes reference to SM2028, which was the supply contract for the Canadian Chev CGT 2pdr Portees. Could the error or missed alteration somehow be for the different manufacturer's vehicle numbers that were converted under the same contract? By that, I mean that there should be no Morris Commercials under SM2028.

[Rob van Meel]

I see where I went wrong on this.
The back side of the contract card for WO contract S2831 had ahand written note on the back side which mentioned this number. Over the number it had indeed Chev, so presumably the original author wanted to make a listing of M?L (Morris Lorries, I assume) and Chevrolet next to each other. I'll delete the S/M number in the list.

Thanks for spotting this.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Rob van Meel

The back side of the contract card for WO contract S2831 had a hand written note on the back side which mentioned this number. Over the number it had indeed Chev, so presumably the original author wanted to make a listing of M?L (Morris Lorries, I assume) and Chevrolet next to each other.

It looks like whoever wrote the note, first wrote the original contracts by manufacturer in ink as a search list for contracts, then next to that wrote the tally and reference in pencil as he discovered the results. They must have stopped searching when they found the Morris info they were looking for! .

I don't mean to detract from a Morris thread, but it is a pity that they never uncovered the tally for converted Chev Portees, as this figure has never been definitively quoted.

Morris Lorries? Or Morris Limited.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Morris Lorries? Or Morris Limited.

Morris Commercial Cars Ltd for trucks and Morris Motors Ltd for cars

The Vocab code for Morris Commercial Cars Ltd was LV7/ML and the one for Morris cars annd utilities was LV7/MM

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

It looks like whoever wrote the note, first wrote the original contracts by manufacturer in ink as a search list for contracts, then next to that wrote the tally and reference in pencil as he discovered the results. They must have stopped searching when they found the Morris info they were looking for! .

I don't mean to detract from a Morris thread, but it is a pity that they never uncovered the tally for converted Chev Portees, as this figure has never been definitively quoted.

From THIS THREAD:

Originally Posted by David Ellery

Hi David. Yes the serial no is correct, here's the whole lot of the data plate . Model 84-40x2, Serial 1844013289, engine 3709130, Body Serial 606, Trim XR, Paint F.C.98. as well on another brass plate there is as follows, Contract no v 4229, Supply Mech 2028.
Cheers David...

It would seem that the contract to convert the Chev Portees to GS or 17Pdr Tractors was V4229. Is there a source to discover the number of vehicles converted under this contract?