Info needed: Building a repro LRDG 1940 Chev.

[Bob Carriere]

I have followed with great interest work done by Andrew and seen pictures of Rick Cove's truck and decided to take the plunge.

I have been sitting on a 1940 Chev 1 1/2 ton truck which is in bad shape so purist need not be concerned and am saving the best parts....also have two spare cabs and lots of CMP dodads. I plan on doing a reasonably accurate repro .... a fun machine that is safe and can be driven on the street......and label it as a repro.

Of particular interest is the model made by Rick as is it similar to mine. Not alone in the asylum as Philippe Jeanneau of Florida is also considering a similar conversion.

Philippe and I are trying to workout the axle issues and rims to be used.

Lots of information has been gleaned from searching the MLU forum and much info is available on the Canadian factory made LRDG based on the 1941_ 42 model but little on the earlier version using 38/39/40 models

I have a complete power train, extra cabs, extra axles, extra front fenders, spare 1 ton rolling frame and a spare freshly rebuilt 235 engine and a fully synchro SM 420 tranny. As I will be using only the front cowl sheet metal the body is fairly simple but would need the expertise of Andrew for the cargo box or go with wood.

What would greatly simplify the building is if we could find C15 or in a pinch a F15 ...... 4x2 front axles...... they are strong and can use regular CMP 16 in. rims. Any rolling chassis C15 / F15 out there??????

I am trying to figure out what size front axle, brakes, rims .... Rick used on his repro and what issues he had with the wheels. I know he found a set of Good Year All weather traction diamond tread 9.5 x 16 tires........ WHICH ARE STILL BEING MADE TODAY...... those are implement tires and I have a new set of Michelin 900 x 16 tires mounted ready to roll.


Not sure if this should not be under the Hammond barn... Hanno advice!!!!



.... the fun begins when the snow melts.......

[Mike K]

Good luck . Interesting project. I think Ricks truck was originally put together by the late Vic Philips . Vic lived at Conargo NSW.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

I know he found a set of Good Year All weather traction diamond tread 9.5 x 16 tires........ WHICH ARE STILL BEING MADE TODAY...... those are implement tires and I have a new set of Michelin 900 x 16 tires mounted ready to roll..

Despite the legal issue of Implement tyres used for Highway service (different jurisdictions place varying emphasis on this, some places you can "get away with it"), I see that the tyre itself is wholly unsuited for a CMP or Truck, 4 would hardly bear the weight!:

Goodyear All Weather Traction R-3
Size: 9.5-16
Load rating/plies: B/4PR
Diameter: 31.9
Rim width (min): 8.0
Max Single Load (lbs): 1100

[Paul Singleton]

Hi Bob,
If I recall the C-15 front axle has the front spring mounting points further apart than a civilian truck. I think the axle is from a cabover truck. I will measure my truck and let you know in a few days. My truck is currently in storage. It may be easier to make up some adapters to allow the CMP wheels to fit your existing hubs, but I am not sure if the track width would be ok.
Paul

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Great project Bob! I think it deserves its own thread so others working on replicas as well can chime in.

Here’s a pic to inspire you. From what I can see here is that those 10.50–16 chevron types you have fitted to your CMPs would well suit the LRDG Chev.

[Bob Carriere]

I am a great believer that our successes and failures should be documented on MLU for the future generations..... where else will that information be available.

On the tyres, I have read on official correspondence of the period where they preferred the sand pattern as it was less likely to dig themselves in loose sand and that they preferred a strip down Chev 2x4 to a 4x4 v8 Ford who was too heavy, burned too much gas compared to the GM 216....... water and gasoline being a priority. Some sarcastic comments were made that the special sand tires requested finally got to them when they were being moved for the Italian campaign......

The LRDG now with Rick Cove is puzzling us because the front view ,shows an axle that according to the CMP manuals at hand to be for the C8 with ribbed brake drums. The parts manual has diagram showing the physical differences between the C8 and the C15 front beam axle and there is further differences with the LRDG front axle build in Canada(1941-42) which I believe was taken from a HD COE 3 ton truck with roller bearing instead of bicycle wheel ball bearings. So at this stage I am not sure what his underpinning is....may have been a 3/4 ton truck...but I know it looks good.

The frame width which will affect the spring brackets width will be something we need to look at closer as pointed out by Paul.

The Good Year All Weather tire in 9.5x16 seem to be available in various ply ratings...some up to 2250 max load....... but they are manufactured sporadically as the demands / back orders stackup. The are popular on golf courses in the states.

We also have to consider whether we are using a flat cowl with a flat hand made dash and round instruments or a civilian curved dash panel with the typical 1940 rectangular instrument cluster such as a C 15A....... windshield post stubs or not.... even with or w/o windshield.....

Since most of the fun is in the hunt we are having a ball.......

comments, suggestions, pitfalls all are welcomed.

Cheers

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Paul Singleton

Hi Bob,
If I recall the C-15 front axle has the front spring mounting points further apart than a civilian truck. I think the axle is from a cabover truck. ... It may be easier to make up some adapters to allow the CMP wheels to fit your existing hubs, but I am not sure if the track width would be ok.
Paul

Does the answer to the question of the front axle have to be an "All or None" situation? I'm thinking that the C15 style hubs (pictured in post #5) and spindles might be able to be fitted on to the narrower civvy beam axle by pulling the kingpins and swapping them over?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bob,

Are you in touch with:

• Andrew H.? See his thread Our LRDG Chev
• paul Lincoln?

You may want to contact these guys too:

• http://www.lrdg.org/
• http://lrdg.de/
• http://www.desert-vehicles.org/

Some more related threads:

• Chevrolet 1533X2 30cwt trucks
• 10-stud 16" rims
• Unusual desert ( INDIAN ? ) Chev
• Chevys of the Indian Long Range Patrol
• Early chevrolet in desert war

I have these manuals which may be of interest for cross checking part numbers, even though they are American:

• TM10-1525 Chevrolet 1-1/2 ton 4x2 truck maintenance manual
• TM19-1524 parts list for same, 1942

And oh, did you read Wheels & Tracks magazine #8?

ISSUE No. 8 (July 1984)
Desert Chevrolets - a lone Long Range Desert Group survivor and its contemporaries.

HTH,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

I have been sitting on a 1940 Chev 1 1/2 ton truck which is in bad shape so purist need not be concerned and am saving the best parts....also have two spare cabs and lots of CMP dodads. I plan on doing a reasonably accurate repro .... a fun machine that is safe and can be driven on the street......and label it as a repro.

Of particular interest is the model made by Rick as is it similar to mine.

Re-reading your first post, I see you must be referring to a 1940 Chevrolet WB 30 cwt 4x2 truck.

At first I thought you were going to replicate the Chevy 30cwt 1533x2 like others have done, in that case 6.00-16 W.D. spilt rims could be sourced from one of your parts trucks in the back 40.

Looking at the WB model, I wonder if they could be civilians rims, possibly widened and mounted inside out?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Bob,

You might want to search for this French magazine. I had the issue in question at some stage, but as I can't find it anywhere, I think I might have recycled it in the meantime

http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/vehi...5-jun-jui-2007

https://librairie-hussard.com/catalo...00186_252.html

You can actually view the pages of the article in small format through the first link.

Alex

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Hanno for the many links that I will research......

...and thanks Alex..... Philippe from Florida has shared that article with me.....

On the wheels/rims...... It seems that the easiest solution has been found in Australia..... you weld a full steel plate on the backside of the regular 16 inch CMP rim and have it accurately drilled to the ten bolt pattern of the 1940 Chev........
and mount them backwards on your truck......and Hanno is right I do have a few rolling CMP chassis that I can scrounge rims from......

According to the French article it took them at least 4 years to get their project done so I am not in a race but it should be a nice challenge.... I am sure some small part will give me the biggest headache..... and widening the front fenders is another challenge

Big problem now is waiting for the snow to melt. I have a complete a 1940 1 1/2 ton Chev pickup and a rolling chassis fully restored for a 1937 1 ton BUT it seem to have the smaller axles more similar to the C8 but the frame may be identical to the 1 1/2 ton...... in any event the frame will be re-inforced with a flat side plate as observed on other models.

The big issue now is trying to match the track of the front axle with the rear axle...or at least get close with in a few inches. The 1940 truck has a 4 1/4 extended spacer on the front and that situates the front tire in middle of the dual tires at the back....once CMP split rims are fitted the rear axle it may be too narrow and need a spacer between the brake drum and the reversed CMP rim to line up.... or I may wind up using a full CMP rear axle which is easy enough on a 4x2 truck. Cargo box is as easy as following Andrew's fabrication. One thingto keep inmind is that the 1940 bolt pattern is "hubcentric" so care must be exercised in modifying the rims to insure the 4 3/4 central heart is still aligned properly..........

Lots of little issues to sort out. Hoping to take advantage of the experience of our friends down under who have done a few LRDG and they look the parts.

With the two spare axles, spare nose and two spare front fenders, 2 spare cabs and the back 40 to pick the odd CMP parts, I should be able to do something respectable.....I do have a good radiator, rebuilt 235 engine, SM420 tranny .....sadly I will not be able to decorate with anything that looks remotely like a machine gun in Canada........ may be a sling shot!!!!!

Tire wise I have a full set of new Michelin 900x16 mounted on CMP rims so for the immediate future I am well shod!!!!!!

...and I keep an eye open for 1938-39 and 40 parts trucks that do come up every now and then..... just missed one in Buffalo NY.... or another CMP rolling chassis .......

Thinking of using two driver's bucket seats from either Dodge M37/43 or 2 1/2 ton trucks for comfort....suitably recovered in light canvass.

Aero screens make look nice and may have to build my own from photographs.

Having Philippe in Florida to bounce crazy ideas on one another is also helpful.

And the insanity goes on!!!!

Cheers

[Mike K]

The Indian pattern ambulance Aust. Had 10 stud hubs on the rear axle and 5 stud hubs on the front axle. 18" wheels . They used a blanking off ring to hide the 5 holes for the front wheels.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=22433

[Mike K]

Here is the ambo with the 10 stud wheels fitted on the 5 stud front hubs . The spare wheel is seen with 10 stud .

[motto]

Like the Lend/Lease Chev using ten stud rear and five stud front hubs, all the wheels had ten holes so as they could be used anywhere on the truck. The retainer ring obscures the other five holes on the front.

David

[Bob Phillips]

Hi Bob
I have a non driving front axle for a CMP ambulance I think. Its been sitting outside for quite a while but its yours if you want it,
Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Yes Mike that ambulance is built on a Chev 1940 ( could be 39) Chevrolet civilian chassis....possibly shipped as a chassis cowl...... ten bolts on a 7 1/4 circle..... heart centric ...the center hub was exactly 4.75 inches. The front axle spacer *** is drilled with only 5 holes.... the blank reinforcement plate only has 5 holes....all the rims have 10 holes and can be used on all four corners..... the rear axle/rim uses all 10 holes. That was a standard on the Chev at that time and persisted well after the war on civvy trucks.

The odd piece is the 18 inch two piece rim very similar to the standard 16 and 20 inch CMP rims. I have never seen or heard of an 18 in. CMP rim in Canada but then I have not seen it all........ they must have been made in Australia or even India..... all I know is that the humongous press used at GM did half of the rim in one punch....eventually Kelsey Hayes took over the production and proudly stamped their name and date on the rims. Some were made in England as we accidentally stumbled on one in Canada......

The front axle has a 4 1/4 in. hour glass shaped spacer. It is bolted to the five standard studs on the brake drum and extends the center of the front wheel track to the middle of the dual rear axle...... On the C15 the front spacer is only 2 inches and the rear axle runs on one tire but they remain a few inches off from tracking perfectly even.

Such lend lease civvy axles were around 55 to 58 in. track and considerably narrower than the CMP at slightly over 70 inches.....CMP had a wide stance for that period.

So much to learn about these trucks....... and then I starting thumbing through a FORD MASTER ASSEMBLY CATALOGUE FMA-01 and my mind was blown away by the number of various axles, mainly with R-Zeppa joints, including the early GM axles when Ford was short of their own.... and the special kits available to revert the Ford ? GM axle to a Ford/Ford axle when major services were done.

I can imagine the frustration of the poor mechanic looking for the right axle in a large field covered with crates of spare parts.....

Thanks guys.

[Bob Carriere]

The small end goes against the brake drum...... parts listed on Ebay about 2 years ago.

[Bob Carriere]

Mr Phillips.......................OH you wonderful man....

Would you have a picture of the brake drum end.....? can you tell if it takes the standard 8 bolts CMP rim...?

.....hope I can sleep now.......

....and yes I might ...possibly ...maybe....haaaaaaa .....consider buying it from you.......

Any idea what and where it might have come from?????

Cheers oh yes ....... Cheers

[Bob Phillips]

Hi Bob
The front axle in question takes a standard 16 inch CMP rim to the best of my knowledge. It has a straight hollow tube not the drop type axle in many 4x2 trucks. Many years ago I bought NOS axles from Levys in Toronto, I got two straight front axles this is the one I still have ( could track down the other if you needed it, its a little heavier at th ends) Anyway its yours when the snow melts.
Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Definitely much interested....as you say when the snow melts ..... I will make a run down your way......... even if it has not melted here in Hammond...... and I might be interested in the other one as well once I have seen the first one.

Getting an axle that accepts CMP rims is going to make the rebuild much simpler and cheaper as it becomes a bolt together projects.

Thank you.

Bob C

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

Hi Bob
I have a non driving front axle for a CMP ambulance I think.

The front axle in question takes a standard 16 inch CMP rim to the best of my knowledge. It has a straight hollow tube not the drop type axle in many 4x2 trucks.

Anyway its yours when the snow melts.
Bob

Sounds like an axle from an F602L (or F602S), which were supplied as an ambulance variant.

Bob might need to check the width, as it will be CMP track (70in), and might be too wide for an LRDG truck.

See http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...3&postcount=28

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Tony

It maybe but would allow me to use a standard C15a rear axle...same 70 1/2 in. and we plan to extend the fenders.....

According to some preliminary measurements and referenced to CMP books the track of the MCP Chev truck is about 66 to 67 inches in the front and 2 to 3 inches narrower at the rear axle....... which I consider getting close......
I think I can live with that....

I have only seen the round tube axles on heavier trucks..... then there is the issue of spring perch and spring pads.....

...another possibility is that the round tube axle may have interchangeable parts such as the drum/hub assembly with the civilian models...... I know that the rear axle the whole brake wheel assembly can be removed and replaced with civilian dual wheel...drum an all fits..... a very popular conversion on trucks in CANADA post war.

Once I have my hot little hands on the parts I can see what fits or not...

....assuming the snow will eventually melt!!!!!!

PS.... there are no listing of a round tube axle in the GM Illustrated cataloge of MAJOR ASSEMBLIES.......dated august 1944.....?

[Bob Carriere]

...I now know that the tubular front axle is for Ford Ambulance and what it looks like ....some parts do interchange with CMPs and could no doubt be made to fit on a LRDG but much stronger construction and is RHD.

Still Keeping a sharp eye open for other related stuff.

Bob C

[Mike K]

This is a interesting pic. What size are the wheels on this 41 model ?

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Tony

Very hard to tell but I would say a CMP rim with some adapter to bolt on to the truck's original bolt pattern.

It would seem that using c15 4x2 axles would be the easiest .....but alas....they are very hard to find.

One option is to have wheels made using a brand new rims and a flat centre piece drilled for the GM 10 holes.....quick fast and$400 each

Second option would be to fabricate a flat adapter from 3/8 steel plate that will bolt to the original GM 10 bolts leaving room for the second set of 8 holes for the CMP pattern .Having available CMP rim much cheaper.

Replace the front beam axles with a Ford tubular front axle which will take regular CMP rims......and a regular C15a rear axle again compatible to the CMP rim. Cheaper rims are avialable any 900x16 would fit.... and a lot sturdier construction using parts we are familiar with.

With the above the rear axle would be slightly offset to the right but not critical I hope.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bob, I’m sure the sturdy Ford front axle would not mind bearing the Chevrolet ;-)

But bear in mind that that axle was designed to replace a driven front axle, so the chassis sits higher. It is a straight tube and not a dropped I-beam. So on a 4x2 Chev the front would be raised higher than the rear. Or are planning on building a “Gasser” hot rod?

When the snow melts I would go out with a tape measure and measure up all the various axles you have. And flip out the parts lists. Maybe some brake drums or entire spindles can be swapped. Did you ask Rick about how his truck was converted? It seems the French guy cracked the code on the wheel-drum combination.

If the conversion is too complicated, I would opt for an 8-bolt CMP rim and drum combination, it will look the part. Only the real anoraks will note you would not be using 10-bolt rims. But those guys will find other things to nitpick on your repro! Just build the truck you’re dreaming of, I’m sure it will be awesome.

HTH,
Hanno

[Bob Carriere]

That is one of the many issues ..... most of which I could address or work around them BUT..... everything is covered with that cold hard stuff for at least another 6 weeks.......

So far the wheels can be converted to a "look a like" by welding a 3/8 flat piece of steel to the back side of a current 16 in. CMP wheel..... then drill out the heart at 4.75 in and the necessary 10 bolt holes........

But the front axle track is much wider than the dual wheel rear axle when only one tire is used...... a solid steel or aluminum spacer????

We will get it done..............

[Bob Phillips]

Just a couple of comments..
the photo referenced by Tony is exactly the same as what I have with one difference, if you look closely at the far wheel you can see that there is an extra support from the bottom of the axle out to support the bottom of an extended king pin. This means 3 points of support for the king pin. The one I parted with is like the photo. I had it running in a 15cwt for a couple of years. The one I have left is the same but without the bottom support. Thed axle is a hollow tube. It would be very easy to cut and weld it wider or narrower as required. I also have access to some 2- 3 ton commercial Ford rear axles if that would be of any help. Changing track width with spacers is a common soluition also, I had 2x M139 bridge trucks (5 ton) that had heavy spacers on the front axle each adding about3 inches to the width of the tires. ( still have some if you have a 5 ton)
BP

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Bob.... Hi everyone....

Finally found a picture of the tubular axle....... tell me if that is the same.

The width of the axle...tracking width....according to reference manual matches other CMP tracks standardized at 70 to 71 inches..... and since I may have to use a CMP C15a rear axle to facilitate using existing CMP rims it may ntobe an issue.

If need be removing and re-fabricating the spring perches is not impossible.... in my days we torched them off and rewelded new one made from thick wall square tubing..... a lot will depend on how standard the 1940 frame width is?

Bigger issue raise by Tony....... the current axle has a 6 inch drop the ambulance axle is straight..... which would raise the nose unless I fabricate spacers for the rear axle......

Too early for that..... I need to get rid of the snow and get my hands dirty touching and measuring.

Still working on a wooden mock up adapter to allow using CMP rims with the existing 1940 axle........ but rather fascinated with the tubular axle.

Bob do you have one axle and possibly a second one???? will "parlez" a price or a donation to MLU upkeep on your behalf...... not sure I need to consider the Ford beam front axle at this point but will look them up in Grant's bibles-s-s-s-s.

Found a wheel fabricator, of all places Canada South of Montreal and not in California, who also has some interesting options for a modern any width and diam rim with a solid flat steel center drilled to the GM 10 bolts.

...and it gets complicated.... got a parts book for the 1940 Chevrolet and another for the Maple Leaf 1940....... and they show 4 different Beam axles and 4 different wheel/rim offset which creates a multitude of front axle width.

Bob....look for a PM.....

Cheers

[Bob Phillips]

Hi Bob see my PM
photos are the heavy version of the axle- was just thinking there is a Maple Leaf GM truck at my local yard with a drop front axle- hubs from the CMP straight axle may fit right on....can investigate if it ever warms up
BP