Canadian Centurion tanks question

[Mike Cecil]

Ed, that great to know what the tank started life as (or rather, finished its active Canadian army career as?). A positive aspect to work with. And I agree with you about getting hold of basic texts, handbooks and so on - they can be so informative.

A Mk5/2 was a 105-mm equipped version that did not have the IR or .50 cal L6A1 fitted, and was not fitted with glacis plate applique armour.
A Mk 11 did have both the IR and .50 cal L6A1 fitted, but was also fitted with the glacis plate armour (ie a Mk11 was an upgraded Mk6, rather than an upgraded Mk5/2. If a Mk5/2 was upgraded with glacis plate applique armour, it became a Mk6)

So maybe Dan has hit the nail on the head with this one - a 'bitzer' made up from:
- the lower half (hull with fittings) from a Mk5/2
- the turret from a Mk.11, (and not just the mantlet from a Mk11, as the turret has the IR control box fitted adjacent to the battery balance box)
- a 20-pdr barrel

Wouldn't be the first gate guard to be assembled from what was available in the workshop 'scrap'.

One way to ascertain if the lower hull was ever fitted with IR would be to look for the auxiliary battery mounting and heavy wiring in the lower right corner of the fighting compartment, mounted to the hull wall, with enough room below to operate the in-floor ammunition bin. Two batteries stacked one above the other in this mounting. There should also be a stowage box in the drivers compartment for the driver's IR periscope.

Mike

[Ed Storey]

Mike, before we go down the 'blitzer' gate guardian fabricated from Centurion parts rabbit hole, can you please tell this forum what a Canadian Centurion with Equipment Configuration Code (ECC) 118109 is?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

So maybe Dan has hit the nail on the head with this one - a 'bitzer' made up from:
- the lower half (hull with fittings) from a Mk5/2
- the turret from a Mk.11, (and not just the mantlet from a Mk11, as the turret has the IR control box fitted adjacent to the battery balance box)
- a 20-pdr barrel

Wouldn't be the first gate guard to be assembled from what was available in the workshop 'scrap'.

I'm not sure that is so likely. To assemble a monument from scrap parts, when you have an entire fleet being disposed of, costs labour. Many/most went out as range targets, so it would have made more sense to use one of those for a monument.

Far more likely is that this cent had whatever kits and modifications it got scheduled for. There is also the possibility that there could have been the rotation of a tank from Germany for rebuild or 3rd line repair, and some portions got swapped and this is the result.

I think I may have the ELD at work for the Centurian...I'll have a look. Often they were more detailed with what the fleet was really like along with final disposition and disposal instructions.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

One way to ascertain if the lower hull was ever fitted with IR would be to look for the auxiliary battery mounting and heavy wiring in the lower right corner of the fighting compartment, mounted to the hull wall, with enough room below to operate the in-floor ammunition bin. Two batteries stacked one above the other in this mounting. There should also be a stowage box in the drivers compartment for the driver's IR periscope.

Mike

Mike, I'll check for this stuff.
Malcolm

[rob love]

Turns out I do have the Equipment Logistics Directive here at the museum. Lots of good information. Date on the ELD is 1977, so very near the end.

Re radios: MK5-Mk5/2:
Gun tank: one C42 and one PRC510 or
one VRC46 and one VRC53

Command tank: two C42 and one PRC510 or
two VRC-46

Mk2:

Gun tank: VRC46 and one VRC53
Command tank two VRC46

ARV: a C42 or a VRC46
AVLB: 1 C42 or one VRC46 and one VRC53


Main Armament:
Mk5 20 pr TK mk1
Mk5/2 20 pr TK mk1 or Gun 105mm tank L7A1

Secondary Armament: MK5 C1 GPMG coax with main gun.
Ranging machine gun, Cal 50, L6A1 (mk5/2 only)

Mk2 Main Armament 105mm tank L7A1
Secondary Armament: C1 coax mounted with main gun,
Ranging MG Cal 50 L6A1
Commanders Machine Gun M2HB

There is a while chart showing the variations of the mkV in either Basic, w. RMG, w. I/R, w. RMG & I/R.

There is a chart showing the holdings between Gagetown, CFE, Borden, and LETE, as well as training aids. Then there is the Logistics stock, and total national inventory. Total holdings are as follows:

Mk5 136
Mk5/2 10
MkII 69
ARV 9
AVLB 4

A lot were excess to requirement, mostly mkV and mk2 variants, along with 4 ARV and one bridgelayer.

There is a chart showing CFRs for hard targets. This list was still early so only 11 are listed. All of them were cannibalized.

There is another chart showing 5 of them by CFR for monuments or museum pieces. It specifically notes that they are to be issued " as is" and no work will be undertaken to restore them to serviceable condition.

Later it mentions that the remaining 212 vehicles were going to be sold to Kraus Mafei, but that an option ofr another 14 might be made available as hard targets, which would reduce the number sold to 198.

Again re the main guns, there is a listing of
mkV with 20 pr gun (86, all in Canada),
mk2 with 105 gun (37, all in Europe and another 32 for later release, total 69) ,
mkV with 20 pr (36),
mk5/2 with 105mm gun (9, all from gagetown)

So lots of info for the Centurian fans. I could possibly scan this ELD and make it available to those diehards who want a copy.

[John Genereux]

I spent my 27 year career at St. Hubert and I can tell you that there were 2 Centurion tanks there. One, as stated before, was in front of Mobile command headquarters (to the right of the building) and there was another one parked inside the gate on the right hand side as you entered. It was located in a small park with a ships anchor and a jet aircraft on a pillar with a dummy pilot inside. I don`t know my aircraft that well but it was either a CF-100 or an F-86. Back to the Cent, my buddy moved this tank to the Hillside Armoury in Montreal at least 10-15 years ago. Before moving, they had to see if a common practice back in the early 70`s had been done. The practice was pouring a few cubic yards of cement into an open hatch and then closing it up. My buddy was able to get the hatch open with the crane on a HLVW wrecker and looked inside. The cement was non existent and the inside was pristine and preserved. It looked like it had gone through a refit, driven to the spot and locked up. So somewhere out there is a very good condition Centurion with a complete hull and turret.

[David Herbert]

Malcolm,
Good idea to just run off the rear tank and not refit the tanks either side of the engine. It will transform engine access and you would never have been able to afford to fill them up anyway.

If you have good battery charging facilities the aux gen is almost redundant as its primary role was to supply the radios and BV (kettle) without running the main engine.

David

[Ed Storey]

It appears that the Mk 11 Centurions in Lahr got cut up.

Centurions Cut Up.jpg

[Mike Cecil]

Rob,

Yes please, would appreciate a copy of the ELD.

Thanks

Mike

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

It appears that the Mk 11 Centurions in Lahr got cut up.

Attachment 101229

Perhaps Kraus Maffei decided they were not worth rebuilding, or else merely wanted to get them off the market. If the deal fell through altogether, perhaps that is why more of them made it to monuments or range targets.

I was with the Leopard Sqn in Gagetown back in 1980. I remember trainloads of the Cents waiting to leave. The story back then is that they were going to Switzerland for gun emplacements. I also remember two Centurions and two ferrets parked out on Shirley road waiting to go as hard targets.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Attachment 101229

I see two kinds of track in the photos: What looks like all steel dry pin (dead) track, and what looks like rubber pads live track. Was the rubber pad track a direct replacement for the steel track, or was it used primarily on the ARV/AVBL? I note our AVBLs were purchased in the mid 60s, as opposed to 1952/3 like the rest of our fleet.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

...as its primary role was to supply the... BV (kettle)...

Which is why all British tanks are superior to all others.

Cheers,
Dan.

[David Herbert]

Thanks Dan, we have our priorities sorted !

Rob, the 'hush puppy' track is not a live track, it is dry pin but with moulded on rubber pads to improve running on hard roads. The name is taken from a brand of footwear popular in the '60s or '70s. The two types of track were directly interchangeable, same sprockets etc. The rubber faced hush puppy track came in relatively late so in British service tended to only be used on the specialist versions of Cent as the gun tanks were almost obsolete by then.

We continued with dry pin track longer than almost every other country because they are lighter, easier to work on in the field and of course cheaper. On the other hand they have a shorter life and need constant tightening and can not be refurbished when worn.

David

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Malcolm,
Good idea to just run off the rear tank and not refit the tanks either side of the engine.

David

Ensure the rear Aux fuel tank is meticulously cleaned out first. In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment. If these (fuel) tanks in Canadian service were fitted during a European tour where Urban fighting might have been more expected that long range driving, then it could also have been sand-filled as additional protection.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Ensure the rear Aux fuel tank is meticulously cleaned out first. In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment. If these (fuel) tanks in Canadian service were fitted during a European tour where Urban fighting might have been more expected that long range driving, then it could also have been sand-filled as additional protection.

Tony, 3 years ago when I was last working on the tank, I found the rear fuel tank rusty inside with the worst on the floor (no sand). I cleaned it and vacuumed it as best I good but access isn't good, and sprayed the interior with preservative oil. We'll have to think about what further cleaning we can do, or whether we'll settle for some heavy duty filtering.

Malcolm

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

I could possibly scan this ELD and make it available to those diehards who want a copy.

Yes! Oh, God yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!!

I mean, if it's not too much trouble.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

One way to ascertain if the lower hull was ever fitted with IR would be to look for the auxiliary battery mounting and heavy wiring in the lower right corner of the fighting compartment, mounted to the hull wall, with enough room below to operate the in-floor ammunition bin. Two batteries stacked one above the other in this mounting. There should also be a stowage box in the drivers compartment for the driver's IR periscope.

Mike

Mike, I took a look inside the tank for IR stuff on the hull. And I took some photos. As you can see my camera takes crap pics in poor lighting and the hull interior is a bit rough.

The first pic shows a mount welded to the hull at the right rear, just below the auxiliary engine air filter. Is it for the auxiliary batteries? It is welded so low on the hull it prevents the hinged bin lid below from opening. You can see two flex conduits on the mount. The next pic shows the ID on the conduits. Seems like IRDB PL4 and PL3 would be related to IR equipment?

The 3rd pic shows the one storage bin remaining in the drivers compartment. From the studs, it looks like there was another bin above the one shown and also on the left wall.

Malcolm

20180723_175036.jpg

20180723_175100.jpg

20180723_175414.jpg

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for the images. Yes, that is the IR battery mounting point, though in Australian tanks fitted for IR, the mount is high enough on the wall to allow the ammo bin below to be opened (thus not reducing the main armament ammunition load by having an inaccessible floor bin).

The driver's compartment IR periscope stowage would have been an open-top bin mounted on the left wall. The one shown is the driver's paperwork stowage bin - such as the vehicle log book, etc (plus the 'stick books' of course!).

Regards

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

"In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment."

Where did you hear of that, please Tony?

In many years of research into the Australian use of Centurion, and interviews with many people who operated Centurions in SVN, it is the first time I've ever heard of that, so I'm curious to learn the source.

Regards

Mike

[David Herbert]

I have not heard of filling the rear tank with sand either but it could well be something that was done without sanction from above. Did they really fill the tank itself or remove the tank and fill the armour box, which would have been much easier and quicker.

British tanks continued to use dry pin track though with replaceable rubber pads on Chieftain and even Challenger 1 but Challenger 2 finally got live track similar to Leopard.

David

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

"In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment."

Where did you hear of that, please Tony?

Regards

Mike

I believe it was in Jungle Tracks, adopted following Binh Ba. I'll have a re-read and find the quote.