FAT Fast 17 pounder recovery

[tankbarrell]

Is your box not a C274 Tim?

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

Is your box not a C274 Tim?

Adrian

The box shown above does not have a number on it.

Am wondering if the original base got broken and someone replaced it with ply... though the replacement if it is would have been a long time ago.

I have another one of these boxes in the pile (picked up 11 of them), so will haul it out and have a look when time to see if that is marked... probably be next week now.

Cheers

Tim

[rnixartillery]

These boxes were very much miss matched when made using what ever timber was available I guess at the time but the lids and bases were generally ply.
The original bottoms all had the box number branded into them to denote their use.


Rob..................rnixartillery

[tankbarrell]

The correct box for the HE round was a C274, the C310 being longer for the APCBC.

I have some sides from a C274 which contained practice flat shot and one small section of base which is T&G and stamped C274 I WI&S LTD 1943. As Rob says, likely boxes were made from whatever met the criterion.

I'd be very interested in a box (or two) if you have a spare!

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

The correct box for the HE round was a C274, the C310 being longer for the APCBC.

There were two types of 17pdr HE rounds. Shell HE/T Mk I fitted on round Mk 3 had an overall length of 35.25 inches. It was not suitable for use in tanks as its length precludes stowage in A.F.V. ammunition racks. Packages containing these rounds are stencilled "For use in Anti-tank guns only." The smaller HE round for use in AFVs has an over length of 31.68 inches.

[John McGillivray]

I got this information off of another forum about six years ago.

The 17 Pdr gun was originally designed as an anti-tank weapon and was
provided with a H.E. shell for use against targets which would not normally be engaged with shot. The use of the gun was subsequently extended and it may now be met with on field, S.P. and tank mountings. The ammunition is interchangeable in all 17 Pdr equipment except as stated below.
AMMUNITION
(a) Q.F. fixed ammunition (except Paper Shot, which is Q.F. separate) of the following Service types used
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. H.E./T. Shell.
Cartridge, Q.F. 17-Pdr. Reduced Charge H.E./T.
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. Reduced Charge H.E./H.C/T.
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. Reduced Charge H.E./Super H.C./T
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. B.E. Screening Smoke
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. B.E. Coloured Smoke
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. A.P.C./T. Shot
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. A.P.C.B.C./T. Shot
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. Practice/T.
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. Reduced Charge, Practice, Flathead/T
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. S.V. A.P.D.S./T. Shot
Cartridge, Q.F. Blank, 17 Pdr
Cartridge, Q.F. Clearing, 17 Pdr
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr, Drill, A.P.D.S
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. for use with Paper Shot.
Cartridge, Shot, Paper, Q.F. 17 Pdr.

(b) As 17 Pdr and 77mm. projectiles are identical, it was decided, in 1944, to amend the designation of all the then current projectiles to include "17 Pdr. and 77mm." in the nomenclature and all current projectiles are designated in this way.
(c) Since the chamber capacity of the 17 Pdr gun is greater than that of the 77mm and the cartridge cases are consequently of different design complete rounds are not interchangeable between the two equipments.For this reason complete rounds include one equipment only in the nomenclature, i.e., the equipment for which the round, as a whole, is designed.
COMPLETE ROUND DETAILS
(a) Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr. H.E./T. Shell complete round Mk. 3 which is fitted with H.E./T. Shell Mk.1, is not suitable for use in tanks as its length (35.25 inches) precludes stowage in A.F.V. ammunition racks. Packages containing these rounds are stencilled "For use in Anti-tank guns only." The overall length of the normal H.E./T. round is 31.68 inches.
(b) A.P.C.B.C./T. Shot Mk.12 assembled in Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr.,A.P.C.B.C./T. Shot complete round, Mk. 3, is a low windage projectile designed to give increased accuracy over other marks. Its accuracy does not differ significantly, however, from that of the normal Service shot.
PROJECTILES AND METHOD OF FILLING
(a) Projectiles.
H.E. SHELL
(i) H.E. shell are divided into three categories according to their H.E. capacity.(normal, high or super high).
- H.E/T
- H.E/H.C/T
- H.E/Super H.C/T
The external contour of the three types of shell is similar,but the internal contour and length of each vary considerably,
- H.E/T - 9.28 inches maximum
- H.E/H.C/T - 9.94 inches maximum
- H.E/Super H.C/t - 11.82 inches maximum
(ii) Shell H.E/H.C/T and H.E/Super H.C/T have a tendency to be unstable in flight and have been declared obsolete.
B.E. SCREENING AND B.E. COLOURED SMOKE
(iii) The Mk.1 shell (Part No. SX 25 GE), for Q.F 17 Pdr and 77mm B.E screening, green, red, blue and yellow smoke has a tendency to be unstable in flight and is restricted to issue against G 1098 requirements only. Existing stocks of empty Mk.1 shells are being converted by shortening the body by 3.95 inches (measured from base) and by providing a recess in the base of the shortened body to house Base, Shell, Smoke B.E No. 16, Mk. 1. On conversion, the projectile is advanced to Mk. 2. Shell Mk.1 converted to Mk.2 and new production shell Mk. 2 will bear the same part numbers for the empty body (i.e., without sub-assemblies such as base plate and plug) and empty shell (i.e. complete with sub-assemblies)respectively. Part numbers are Body SX 330 Shell SX 45, GE.
Note. The part number of the body is stamped on the side of the body wall;the part number of the shell is stencilled below the driving band and is therefore obscured by the cartridge case.
SHOT
(iv) Shot A.P/T, A.P.C/T and A.P.C.B.C/T for 17 Pdr and 77mm.equipments form one consecutive series of marks. Thus, as each new mark of shot is approved, it is given the mark next in numerical order above the last mark of shot produced, irrespective of the fact that either may be capped or uncapped.
(v) Shot, Practice/T. and Shot, Practice, Flathead/T. must be stored and reported separately. The former is used to give similar ballistics to normal A.P/T. Shot while the latter is for use on short or restricted ranges where reduced penetration and no ricochets are desirable.
(b) METHOD OF FILLING DESIGNS
(i) All H.E. Shell are fitted with external tracer No.13
(ii) Screening and Coloured Smoke Shell Mks.1 and 2 are filled to the same design - D2(L)1631/GF/478, but as the Mk.2 Shell is shorter than the Mk.1 by 3.95 inches, it is filled with two No.18 smoke containers only.
The part numbers of 17 Pdr. and 77mm screening and coloured smoke shell Mk.2 are:
Screening Smoke Shell Mk. 2 SX154GF
Blue Smoke Shell Mk. 2 SX157GF
Green Smoke Shell Mk. 2 SX155GF
Red Smoke Shell Mk. 2 SX156GF
Yellow Smoke Shell Mk. 2 SX158GF
USE OF SLEEVES SABOT WITH Q.F, 17 Pdr, 77mm. A.P.D.S/T Shot, Mks.1 to 3
(a) At trials carried out in 1951, the accuracy of the Q.F 17 Pdr/77mm A.P.D.S/T Mks.1, 2 and 3 shot was considerably improved by the use of a short rubber sleeve fitted over the rear end of the sabot. Approval was therefore given in February, 1952 for the introduction into the Service of sleeves, Sabot, to Spec. 2508 for Q.F. 17 Pdr/77mm A.P.D.S/T. Mks. 1 to 3 shot, when used in the Q.F 17 Pdr gun Mks. 1-3 shot are assembled in Cartridge, Q.F 17 Pdr as follows:
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr, A.P.D.S/T Mk.1 - Shot Mk. 1
Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr, A.P.D.S/T Mk.2 - Shot Mk. 2 or 3.
(b) Sleeves, sabot, which are packed separately from the ammunition,will be issued on a for one basis with issues of Cartridge,Q.F, 17 Pdr, Mks.1 and 2.
Note. - The accuracy of Cartridge, Q.F, 77mm A.P.D.S/T shot is not improved by the fitting of sleeves, sabot.
(c) Cartridge, Q.F 17 Pdr A.P.D.S/T shot of Canadian manufacture does not require the use of sleeves, sabot. Rounds of Canadian manufacture have the letters 'CDN' included in the nomenclature and normally bear the letters 'CAN' after the batch number.British and Canadian rounds will be reported separately on the stock report.
CASE EMPTY, PROPELLANTS AND THE ARRANGEMENT OF CHARGES
(a) Case empty
(i) The only difference between the Mk.1 and Mk.2 case is that the mouth of the latter has been increased in diameter to overcome large interference fits, and the metal stresses resulting there from.
(ii) Except for Cartridge, Q.F 17 Pdr S.V. A.P.D.S./T. Shot all cases are secured by four equi-spaced indents into a cannelure formed in the body of the projectile below the driving band. For S.V. A.P.D.S./T. shot, the mouth of the
case is coned over the 'skirt' of the projectile.
(b) Propellants, and the Arrangement of Charges
(i) Although the word "FOIL" has been dropped from the nomenclature, all rounds except A.P.D.S./T. and smoke,contain foil. Originally, full charge rounds contained 6 drams only of lead or tin foil but, in order to prevent "coppering," approval was given for the amount to be increased to 12 drams in the following natures only,commencing with the batches and box numbers specified below
Cartridge, Q.F 17 Pdr
Shot, Practice, Flathead/T - Batch X1A - Box 550.
Shot, A.P.C./T - Batch E 1OA - Box 276.
Shot, Practice/T - Batch T. 38A - Box 116.
Cartridge, Q.F Blank, Clearing and Paper Shot
(a) Fuze
(i) H.E rounds of early production fitted with Fuze D.A No. 244 Mk.1, 2, 3, or 4 or Fuze, D.A No.257 Mk.1, all of which are fitted with copper needle discs and may give rise to prematures, are banned for training purposes and are being refuzed with Fuze,No. 257 Mk. 2.
(ii) H.E. rounds from current production are fitted with either Fuze No. 257 Mk.2 (steel needle disc) or Fuze, No.410 both of which are interchangeable and are suitable for training and operational use.
(iii) Cartridge, Q.F. 17 Pdr Reduced Charge, H.E/H.C/T Shell, Mk.1 is fitted with U.S.A. Fuze M48A1. British fuzes are not inter-changeable with the M48A1 because the absence of an adapter in the projectile of this round precludes their use
(iv) Fuze, Time, No.390 is approved for use in 17 Pdr screening and colour smoke shell.
(b) Primer.-Primer, Percussion, Q.F., Cartridge, Nos. 9 and 11 must not be interchanged.
(c) Tracers.-
All H.E. shells are fitted with external tracers No.13. A.P.D.S./T.
Shot Mk.1 is fitted with external tracer No.22 and A.P.D.S./T.
Shot Mks. 2 and 3, with external tracer No. 29. All other projectiles,
excluding Screening and Coloured Smoke shells have stemmed tracer cavities.
(d) Plug Fuze Hole
Complete rounds are not normally held plugged but when it is necessary to do so, the plug shown against each projectile in the illustrations will be used.
e) Clip, Q.F. Cartridge No. 37 Mk.1 or 2 may be used.

[John McGillivray]

More drawings.

[rnixartillery]

The 77mm tank rounds (short case) very seldom come up for sale ,there was one sold just recently by a UK dealer for an eye watering price.
Clearly the packaging is different for these as apposed to the 17 pdr rounds.

Rob...............rnixartillery.

[Rob Fast]

It appears the 17 pdr. bits and pieces are in hot demand these days with Adrian's beautiful piece he just acquired. Keep me in mind here in Canada for anything 17 pdr. related. See pics of our block/ring. Cheers Rob

[Rob Fast]

Rob Nixon warned me this pump is always a very tight fit into it's socket on the left trail. Paint removal,grinding,sanding, still can't make the pump turn 45 into position. I'll get it and enjoying the challenge. Cheers Rob

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Rob Fast

Rob Nixon warned me this pump is always a very tight fit into it's socket on the left trail. Paint removal,grinding,sanding, still can't make the pump turn 45 into position. I'll get it and enjoying the challenge. Cheers Rob

Nice piece Rob, I am jealous.

If you are having too much difficulty getting it to fit, pass it on my way. I'll get it to work.

[rnixartillery]

I might be parting with another one shortly if you are wanting one !


Rob.............rnixartillery.

[rob love]

Yes please. PM or email me the details.

[Rob Fast]

Does anyone here know the outside measuremnts of this label? Cheers Rob

[Rob Fast]

Found today on a C-323.

[Rob Fast]

Took delivery of a limber today. Yes a little rough around the edges, looking forward to the restoration this winter. Cheers Rob

[David Dunlop]

Nice, Rob!

David

[rob love]

Another big piece to your 17 pounder set-up. Congrats.

[Peter Duggan]

Rob,

Great find. Looks to be quite complete. Will make a great sight with your tractor and 17 pounder.

Peter

[Rob Fast]

The crates and boxes are coming together, I just need to find the source for correct stencil sizes and fonts for added detail. Have a look at my first attempt at a ammo box label repro...HE.... working on the APC and APCBC label as well.

[Rob Fast]

Have you guys got any input on the details on how and what was stowed in the front tray? A lot of footman loops. Cheers Rob

[Patrice DEBUCQUOY]

Hello Rob,

Here is what I found in TM from the Belgian Army (1946).
It seems there 3 kinds of limber :
*caisson de pièce (the one hooked to the gun)
*caisson avant de section
*caisson arrière de section
All the tools were protected by a canvas cover.

https://i.imgur.com/ZtQnD3Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/enh1i73.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Yf7Mq2e.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3bA52eo.jpg

Hope it helps,
Cheers from France,
Patrice.

[rob love]

In typical British fashion, nothing is left to chance or the imagination.

For an English version of the above, get the manual "Handbook for the Ordnance, QF 25prMMarkII on Carriage, 25pr., Mark1 Land Service (1940). You od have to jump around a bit, as some of the stowage charts are inside while the fold out pages have the diagrams.

Unsure if the same is contained in the similar 17pdr manual.

[Rob Fast]

getting ready for the press Friday morning for a local article being done. First pics of Fat with Limber and 17 in tow. Cheers Rob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Rob,

What a great line-up!

Hanno

[Wayne Hingley]

Yes, this is a very nice fleet! Unique items preserved with great detail. Please remember to post the write-up Rob.

[Peter Duggan]

Rob,

Beautiful collection of CMPs. Your attention to detail is outstanding. The blood, sweat and tears putting it all together has to be considerable. Enjoy, I certainly do.

Peter

[Rob Fast]

Cheers Rob and Tony
https://www.thecarillon.com/local/Br...493186911.html

[jdmcm]

Awesome Rob! Excellent work

[Rob Fast]

Thanks for the heads up Rob Love on this shell casing. Drove 6 hours and traded away the farm for this one. Always looking for more 17 pounder stuff. Cheers Rob