Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Jacques Reed]

Good Day All,

It has been very informative following this active thread after it has been relatively quiet for a while.

Makes you realize even something as simple as the supply of paint in wartime can have a great background story to it. The conflict between different organizations in particular.

Just a quick aside, since this is a Canadian forum, attached is a roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern. It is shown wet from being washed down after I obtained it so the colours are more vibrant than when it was dry.

Look forward to more info coming to light via this thread.

Cheers,

[Keith Webb]

Here's something similar but a bit more weathered on a piece of cab 12. What is evident is the brush strokes on the disruptive colour.

[Mike K]

This is the two green camo on the side of the Morris PU. The yellow desert paint has mostly fallen off and only little bits are left .

The blue/grey is the paint Lanes Motors applied , its mostly gone .

The C8 I bought in 1981, had the camo on the roof, a green and what looked like a brush applied black or very dark grey

[Mike K]

This is a good read . From around 1980 , it is aimed at US restorers but there are a few helpful tips for most MV restorers.

[Lang]

Colour shot Chevrolet Milne Bay July 1942

https://youtu.be/qRbVppxXs2k?t=116

[Mike K]

If anybody in Victoria is interested in buying the silicon powder. There is a industrial/pottery supplier in Dandenong South that sells 20kg bags of the fine grade silicon as well as many other materials involved with the pottery/ceramics field.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Couple times I have come across or had a can of the paint flattening compound dry out. Have had very good luck making the big lump usable again by regrinding it. Simply dropped the chunks into a food blender, close lid and hit blend. Just kept repeating until the entire quart was reduced back to fine powder. Put powder in fresh can added enamel reducer then mixed with color strain and paint.

Before someone asks no not the blender from the kitchen, an old one. They are often cheap at yard sales. Have also used the same process on old military paint that has skimmed over in the can. Not for painting vehicles but for painting non-critical things like gas cans, tables etc. Seems to work well and last.

One comment in general on painting with flattened paint, only put the fattening in the top coat, so under color layer provides a good seal.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jacques Reed

roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern.

Indeed it is Jacques – Khaki Green No.3 with Light Earth disruptive applied in production. As shown previously these were Dulux 21-line finishes supplied in Australia by B.A.L.M. and their Adelaide subsidiary United Australasian Paint Co. Thanks for posting this image which illustrates so well the extreme durability of these military spec alkyd enamel finishes.

In terms of vehicle numbers and types this was by far the most extensively used camouflage scheme of the war, and although it was superseded in March ’43 under SM 4809, instructions were that vehicles already camouflaged were not to be repainted unless moving into operational areas. Hence we commonly see vehicles still in this scheme late in the war. Rarely however do we get to see the roof pattern! I’ve not seen pattern charts for Cab 13 but they appear to have been based on existing Cab 12 patterns.

Cheers!


Dulux 21-line finishes.jpg

Mech. Circ. 319 disruptive pattern charts 1-12.jpg

Mech Circ 319 CMP pattern charts (Medium).jpg

Mech Circ 319 pattern charts Jacques roof.jpg

064333 RYDE, NSW. 1944-02-09. FIRE TENDERS AND 3-TON GS TRUCKS AT 3RD ORDNANCE VEH PARK..JPG

[Mike Cecil]

Sorry Mike Cecil I thought a direct link to the file was quickest of all [only if it works reliably, which it didn't, as I was downloading on a slow system in backwoods Montana, and it wouldn't complete the task. Not everyone is connected on a quick system (see Tony Wheeler's post below, for example). By going direct to the NAA site and tapping in the barcode, I was able to look at the on-line copy, not download the large pdf which was the link you provided]

I will pop the bar code in it for you none the less. [thank you]

I thought paying the 245 bucks to put it on line and supplying the link was generous enough ...... [actually, the $245 was to have the file copied so you could see it on line, rather than having to travel to Canberra to look at it. The generous part was telling us where it was, which I and I'm sure others appreciate. All files, once a copy request is received by NAA, are placed on line at the requester's expense, like it or not.

And have you considered that the file was already open [O] and not 'NYE', so you were able to order it and have it copied without the 3 month delay while it was examined and cleared? You can thank me for that: I had it cleared in the 1970s or 80s, long before Recordsearch came along (it's entry in my research index is P98, so very early in my research of that topic).

Good luck with your book, Gina, I'll look forward to reading it.

Mike

[Lang]

Tony

That shot of the vehicles lined up must be new ones as they look like they have been painted with a template absolutely identical.

In Gina's file there is a letter from Dakin berating the RAAF for not following the plan. He actually says "Your vehicles are very, very (twice)bad" and "they are not just wiggly lines but well thought out designs to disguise corners and shapes"

There are quite a few similar letters (much correspondence would never have made it on to that consolidated central file) and he must have got so frustrated with them that the North East Commander made him go away by declaring the RAAF would not use any camouflage other than plain green.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

To be fair on Gina/Jane, Tony, she went back to post 376 and inserted the barcode when I asked for it. As I said earlier, providing the link on the forum so we would all know it was available on line was generous of her.

For those who may not use or know the NAA system, the barcode is the unique identifier for each file. Going to the Advanced Search display provides a place to put the barcode in if it is known - much quicker and easier than typing in all the series number, etc.

I use them a lot now, keeping a list for each project that I can quickly refer to. The current project has some 300 files listed, mostly in series B2455, so you can see it can be quite a time saver in calling up files once the barcode is known.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

To be fair on Gina/Jane, Tony, she went back to post 376 and inserted the barcode when I asked for it.

Thanks Mike, I wouldn’t have noticed if you hadn’t told me. I’ve deleted my post accordingly.
Cheers,
Tony

[Mrs Vampire]

Well Thanks for that Mike Cecil

Here am I thinking I am doing this for the good of all but it turns out I am just doing it to save myself a trip To Canberra . And as for having documents cleared I have done a bit of that too

Well with that that's me out if it I've had enough

[Lang]

Tony

A lot of the trainers were all, or mostly fabric. Even the most advanced aircraft at that time had fabric control surfaces which require dope not paint. The engine cowls on Tiger Moths, Ansons, Wirraways etc used paint but often the whole lot was just hit with dope which is not a perfect coating for those surfaces.

I think you might be right about using the standard paint on metal surfaces. It certainly was not long lasting as you can see from colour aircraft photos. Aircraft always got scruffy quickly until the advent of two pack paints in 70/80 period.

Lang

[Bob Carriere]

Sides have been taken and there are no winner but a few ruffled feathers.

I have followed this thread since the beginning and appreciate all the efforts you (collectively) have made to sort out the issue. It has unearthed a whole bunch of historical information precious to our hobby.

But alas history repeats itself. For 4 years military and elected officials have argued about the shades, tone, durability of paint and who would make the most money from the contracts.

.....and now since March 2013, for 4 years, we have done almost the same thing. There are no winners but our hobby now has a whole different appreciation of the issue of "PAINT" ........... then and now!!!!!

I am always amazed about the historical accuracy of our many restorations.
I have sand blasted to bare metal, washed with phosphoric acid, used POR 15 coating, a urethane binder coat and 2 or 3 OD green coats of paint on a vehicle that lasted, in my case 77 years, without more than a very very light OD coat of paint with no evidence of primers or glossy undercoat. I have concluded that my truck could now last another 177 years ...... whatever shade of green it is.

Thank you all for the interesting read and I hope no one feels ruffled by all the different facts, opinions and/or preferences.

Cheers

PS.....not sure how many of you remember the B.T.B. title that was conferred to me by fellow Aussies....... I use it with pride.

[Richard Farrant]

A bit off topic as this is regarding British paint in early 1950's but is about poor quality paint being supplied to army, if it happened then it could easily have happened in wartime.
The attached is an excellent research document from Clive Elliott which he posted on HMVF forum:

http://hmvf.co.uk/pdf/British%20Army...n%20Paints.pdf

The early part of the article refers to the quality issue.

regards, Richard

[Mike K]

When you think about it, it took the automotive industry many decades before the owned up the fact that paint in its many forms , was not a good long term rust preventative.

Anybody here own a Holden in the 50's 60's 70's ? They were absolute rust buckets and what did GMH do about it ..nothing of course . GMH wanted you to buy a new Holden each 4 years or so.

Paint back then was porous and eventually good old H2O got through to the steel .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For your information:

I was requested to reset the user name to Jane Doe - see the reason below.

Hanno
MLU Administrator

Originally Posted by Jane Doe

Well Thanks for that Mike Cecil

Here am I thinking I am doing this for the good of all but it turns out I am just doing it to save myself a trip To Canberra . And as for having documents cleared I have done a bit of that too

Well with that that's me out if it I've had enough