Dunkirk

[Ed Storey]

I never knew Canadians were rescued from Dunkirk during Op DYNAMO, I learn something new every day...

[jdmcm]

have you seen the film yet Ed? any good?

John

[Ed Storey]

Not yet, although I hope there are no Canadians in it as the newspaper wants us to believe.

[motto]

I don't imagine it will be touched on in the film but I understand that some thousands of French troops were also taken off the Dunkirk beaches many of whom later returned to occupied France rather than join the Free French under DeGaul.
You couldn't blame them for just wanting to go home. Nobody knew how long the war would last or who would win and DeGaul was to many a hated man. The very definition of arrogance.

David

[r.morrison]

Gentlemen: Regarding the conversation about the "new" Dunkirk movie which has made it's way onto the forum..... the Canadian part of it I am very dodgy on. But some where in the back of my mind, I am pretty sure there were Canadians rescued at Dunkirk and that a small group had gone over and something reminds me that it was the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. I'll have to do a little more looking into this or possibly Ed.

HOWEVER..... if you are looking for Canadian content..... check out the original movie made in 1958 with John Mills and Richard Attenborough. At approximately 1 hour and 21 minutes 42 seconds you will see "John and Dicky" pull over to the side of a road to Dunkirk and there at the left side is an abandoned CMP Cab 12 30cwt. Fact or fiction....well we'll know soon enough.

Worth looking at...Robert AND maybe someone with far more skills on a computer than yours truly could post it here!!!

[Lynn Eades]

So When were the first Cab 12s built?

[r.morrison]

Hey Lynne....just hung up the phone to your mate down Fielding way, Ian MacArthur. We'll trust the experts on this forum to answer your question. Say....do you know anyone at the Papakurra Rugby Club?? Robert

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Robert, Sorry, no. I don't know anyone from Papakura. There is a military camp there.

[Alex van de Wetering]

to the side of a road to Dunkirk and there at the left side is an abandoned CMP Cab 12 30cwt

Must have been that special Stainless Steel version....with the "flux capacitor"....

[Ed Storey]

No Canadians at Dunkirk, 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade, 1st Canadian Infantry Division did have a short foray into southern France a week after DYNAMO had finished.

[Mark W. Tonner]

I concur with Ed Storey. There were no Canadian units/formations present at Dunkirk, nor on the continent at the time of the Dunkirk evacuation.

Cheers

[maple_leaf_eh]

Since the level of scholarship of this forum demands veracity, I cracked my copy of CP Stacey's WW2 history. Pages 10 to 16 relate the situation of early summer of 1940.

As the French and British armies were being overwhelmed and isolated by German pincer arms, a rescue was contemplated involving 1st Canadian Division under Andy McNaughton (hero of Vimy and other WW1 battles). Yes, the plan included Allied troops and 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade, which included the Hasty Pees, 48 Highlanders, 3 Fd Regt RCA, two anti-tank batteries and some engineers. It was embarked and ready to leave Dover for Calais on 23 May. McNaughton and staff took a RN destroyer forward to recce Dunkirk and interviewed several senior officers on the Continent. Their conclusion was the situation was too chaotic for the Canadians to have any beneficial effect,. The mission was cancelled upon debrief to the War Office, including the brand new PM, one Mr. Churchill (you may have heard of him). The Brigade was returned to barracks feeling excluded. No so-called Dover Dash for them.

The Dunkirk perimeter continued to collapse, and quote fresh troops unquote were considered to reinforce the bridgehead. The same Brigade was warned again by the War Office to be ready. Again McNaughton and now Crerar argued against what was labelled "Angel Move". With plans being overtaken by events, the idea was cancelled. And again, 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade was stood down.

Skip ahead two weeks, and the British had identified the 1st Canadian Division and the 52nd (Lowland) Division to reinforce the 51st (Highland) Division and the 1st Armoured Division still fighting in France. The prime strategy being to fight as hard as possible to retain a toehold in France, at nearly all costs. This became the reason for the mid-June deployment of Canadians to France for all of three days, through Brest in the west, long after Dunkirk in the east was evacuated.

Stacey colourfully describes the train carrying the Hasty Pees back from their assembly area, "With all possible preparations made for defence, and every carriage bristling with assorted weapons, the train rolled on through the countryside, a little moving island of Canadian territory, with the French Republic dissolving into ruin all about it."

The brigade lost six men - one killed in a motorcycle accident and five taken prisoner, four of them escaped and one remained a prisoner until 1945.

Thus endeth the lesson from the chapter The First Canadians Overseas, by the apostle CP Stacey, from the big book of The Canadian Army 1939-1945.

[Lang]

I just saw`"Dunkirk".

I did not realise the British were issued with fresh clothing and equipment daily to be immaculately clean and in perfect uniform at all times. The few dirty characters had obviously objected to the makeup people doing much more than dusting their faces with pretend dirt.

They were certainly ahead of their time because when they reached the beaches they paraded in orderly groups and some scenes recorded how they had spent the entire day policing the beach for not a single cigarette butt or biscuit wrapper soiled the area.

Their vehicles were probably parked in the Dunkirk city parking areas (with tickets on the dashboard).

You certainly do not get the sense of a beaten Army struggling to survive while all hands were to the pumps to rescue them in terrible circumstances.

It probably does not matter to the current generation who have been brought up on "reality" TV shows.

Lang

[jdmcm]

Coincidently my only real beef with Fury was the Germans wearing immaculate officers uniforms, polished riding boots and creased breaches...in April 1945...I guess Bruce Crompton who supplied the axis uniforms was not having any dirt or damage on his prized collection...maybe he helped with the British kit on Dunkirk...

[r.morrison]

Amen Mr Warner for consulting with the big book in the hallway. In the back of my head I knew we had some forces there. But the question still remains......were there Cab 11/12's at Dunkirk or was this unit just a "prop" for the movie? I tried checking it out on line one more time but they kept saying I had to join a "club". F' that!! Maybe someone else can get in.
Cheers....Robert

[Bruce MacMillan]

I guess people don't check their facts before publishing. Websites like this
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK...on-of-Dunkirk/
publish erroneous info and the public begins to believe it.

There were Canadians at Dunkirk but were serving with British forces. I think the only official presence were the 4 destroyers of the RCN.

[Alex van de Wetering]

But the question still remains......were there Cab 11/12's at Dunkirk or was this unit just a "prop" for the movie

Robert, cab 12 production started at least a half year later than the actual Dunkirk evacuation, so we can be sure there were no cab 12's there at the time.

We have a terrific thread here on the forum regarding the first CMP's in france 1940
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1426

I think all pictures of CMP's in France 1940 we have found so far, are taken around Brest and in hands of Canadian units.....or their new German owners.

Alex

[Mike Cecil]

Saw this last evening in the luxury seating at the North Town Mall cinema. I'm glad I was comfortable, but it only partially made up for all the wincing I found myself doing involuntarily throughout this movie. The positives were few: some nice air to air combat footage and Spitfire cockpit scenes (though the single HE-111's return fire sounded like a 30mm cannon!).

The negatives were legion. Clean beaches and uniforms, very very small numbers of extras trying to look like 300,000+, modern container handling cranes in the background of numerous shots, not one wrecked building in the town or along the foreshore esplanade, despite the bombing and artillery bombardment .... an anchored mine sweeper that, when bombed, rolls over on its side, but then stops and doesn't sink .... the list could go on and on and on... in summary, 'too many to list', to use a well known MV collector phrase!

As for CMPs, I'm reasonably sure I glimpsed a cab 13 from the rear 3/4 angle in a brief sweep along the abandoned vehicles on the esplanade. Might well be wrong: by that late stage in the film, my incredulity had well and truly set in.

If there was a story line, I think I missed it in all the jumping back and forth in time.

Final summation: pathetic. Don't waste your time or money.

Mike

[jdmcm]

I think the real dangers of movies like Dunkirk is that they now become the genuine history for the uninformed who will never pick up a book and read about the events before during or after

[Lynn Eades]

I don't wish to be negative, but I was somewhat disappointed.
Yes Mike we saw a cab 13 there (3/4 front view)
For some perspective, there were 63,879 vehicles, and 20,548 motorcycles lost. I cant recall seeing one Carrier or Vickers Light Tank, or a kilted soldier.
They left behind 2472 Artillery pieces, but managed to get out 322 others, along with 4739 vehicles and 533 motor cycles. Of stores, they took off the beach about 66,000 tons of petrol, ammo and other stores.
Of the dead bodies (not seen) Gort lost 68,111 men. If I recall correctly you could see where the modern beach cleaning machines had left lines in the sand. A simple leaf blower would have dealt to that.
I believe the movie failed because it never gave any impression of the scale.
Yes the troops were beaten, but there was no return fire from the sheep on the beach, when the Stukas came in.
I would say that (in my unqualified opinion) what they focused on, was was reasonably portrayed.
As the director seemed to favour the air war, the RAF put in 4,822 flying hours in 9 days and lost 177 aircraft.
My figures come from Richard Colliers book "The Sands of Dunkirk"

The modern blue train seats and the aluminium window frames at the end were a shocker!

[Lang]

Just looked at Bruce's historic link.

The thing that is perpetrated throughout the Dunkirk story, probably beginning with morale boosting propaganda at the time, was the Germans defeated the allies with "overwhelming odds"

Any quick search on numbers will show the combined strength of the defending forces had considerably more men, tanks, trucks, artillery and aircraft than the Germans. It was shear audacity and risk taking by the Germans that won the day - Blitzkrieg. Rommel is just one divisional commander who outran his supply, ignored threats to his flanks and risked losing the lot by plunging deep into the opposing forces.

The speed and mobility of the assault totally bewildered the WW1 mentality of the French and British commanders.

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

So Lang, perhaps the more accurate phrase would be 'overwhelming force' rather than 'overwhelming odds'? An army doesn't need to be in superior numbers to exert 'overwhelming force' and through the audacious use of 'shock and awe', win the day - very much, I think, what the German Army did in the invasion of France. And George Patton did to a certain extent in the opposite direction four + years later: keep punching forward till the supply line holds you back.

I agree with you about the order for the advancing German units to halt/rest/regroup/ etc. Much debate, but no adequate explanation seems to have resulted. One of those mysteries of war.

Mike

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lang

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

Why? It's because the German commanders were ordered to hesitate by their political master. The delay was to try one last time to get the British to 'see reason' and make a deal to join Germany as a lesser partner. Should that happen, an intact British army would be useful. It sounds wacky but there was enough support in the British parliament to make it a possibility. A possibility, that is, until Winston Churchill rightly dug his heels in. The same perceived support for a possible British/German deal by some British parliamentarians and The Duke of Windsor was also responsible for the setting up of a clandestine meeting with Rudolf Hess when he flew his Me110 into Scotland. Of course it was a trap, but it only worked because Germany thought it was possible. Read "Ten Days to Destiny" by John Costello.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Lang

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

According to the doco on TV a few weeks back, Goering promised Hitler the Luftwaffe would finish off the British at Dunkirk with prolonged bombing . The doco claimed , most historians have ignored what the RAF actually did - save the day . The TV doco was dispelling the furphy that the RAF was not seen above the beaches and the Luftwaffe had a free sky to do whatever .

They interviewed veterans , and the RAF was actually doing quite a lot behind the beaches , unseen by the guys trapped on the beach.

The doco praised the Spitfire in particular , its first encounter with German fighters was described. The Luftwaffe lost many aircraft , hundreds during the battle for France . The French air force put up a decent fight , it wasn't another Polish debacle.

[Lang]

Mike and Bruce you seem to make my point about unanswered reasons.

Bruce has the Germans deliberately stopping to allow a political arrangement, Mike has them getting no reprieve but the German Army standing back while the German Air Force took over the (unsuccessful) job of destroying them.

Neither theory looks strong to me.

We seem to forget the British Army fell back before the Germans as easily as the French. Both claim the other moved rearward exposing their flanks forcing them to move also.

What about the tarnished French Army putting up such a resistance on the defense perimeter they occupied the Germans long enough for an escape to be made. If the Germans were seriously held up, their artillery would have been fully occupied on the defenders not being used in some sort of random slaughter of milling people inside the perimeter.

Whatever the heroism involved in the evacuation and 3 days of "holiday" ,for whatever reason, the rescue would not have happened if the French had not continued to put up a wall to allow the British to escape.

Just another theory.

Lang

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lang

Mike and Bruce you seem to make my point about unanswered reasons.

Bruce has the Germans deliberately stopping to allow a political arrangement, Mike has them getting no reprieve but the German Army standing back while the German Air Force took over the (unsuccessful) job of destroying them.

Neither theory looks strong to me.

We seem to forget the British Army fell back before the Germans as easily as the French. Both claim the other moved rearward exposing their flanks forcing them to move also.

What about the tarnished French Army putting up such a resistance on the defense perimeter they occupied the Germans long enough for an escape to be made. If the Germans were seriously held up, their artillery would have been fully occupied on the defenders not being used in some sort of random slaughter of milling people inside the perimeter.

Whatever the heroism involved in the evacuation and 3 days of "holiday" ,for whatever reason, the rescue would not have happened if the French had not continued to put up a wall to allow the British to escape.

Just another theory.

Lang

Read the book. The research and references (71 pages worth) make a pretty solid case.

[Lang]

Bruce, I have not read that book but several others of the period, all with different perspectives. References are easy as you just take the bits that fit your argument, even out of context, as anyone writing a paper for a university assignment will tell you. Look impressive though.

I have read two books on the Hess incident, one claims he was an authorised Hitler emissary and the other that he was an extremely strange fellow doing his own thing.

The "Halt to negotiate" theory loses ground in my view. If you are negotiating in good faith, even hoping for the others to come across to your side as you suggest, why would you continue to kill thousands of people by air attack during the so called reprieve period?

I think the most likely is - They are cornered like rats in a trap against the sea, with nowhere to go. We are only going to lose hundreds of our blokes in an assault why not just starve them out and terrify them with bombing until they come to their senses and give up. Whether this idea came from the field commander, Army Headquarters or Hitler personally doesn't really matter.

Lang

[Lang]

There does not seem to be too much conspiracy in this history.

Notice how the generals tried to blame Hitler. Rundstedt called the halt because of going for his tanks and supply problems. Hitler visited to see for himself and obviously was convinced by the generals - "Hitler endorsed the order..."

Manstein described it as Hitler's greatest mistake but Hitler gave all due diligence by coming to France, listening to his commander on the spot and endorsing Rundsted's order. Manstein and the others raged later at Hitler over riding generals' orders but when it suits him reverses his position.

The Air Force said they would do the job, giving the allies time to prepare and the French put up a wall to let the British escape.


Main article: Battle of Dunkirk
By 24 May, the Germans had captured the port of Boulogne and surrounded Calais.[30] The engineers of the 2nd Panzer Division under Generalmajor Rudolf Veiel built five bridges over the Canal Line and only one British battalion barred the way to Dunkirk.[40] On 23 May, Rundstedt had ordered the panzer units to halt, concerned about the vulnerability of his flanks and the question of supply to his forward troops.[41][42][43] He was also concerned that the marshy ground around Dunkirk would prove unsuitable for tanks and he wished to conserve them for later operations (in some units, tank losses were 30–50 percent).[44][45] Hitler was also apprehensive, and on a visit to Army Group A headquarters on 24 May, he endorsed the order.[44]

Air Marshal Hermann Göring urged Hitler to let the Luftwaffe (aided by Army Group B[46]) finish off the British, to the consternation of Halder, who noted in his diary that the Luftwaffe was dependent upon the weather and air crews were worn out after two weeks of battle.[47] Rundstedt issued another order, which was sent uncoded. It was picked up by the RAF Y service at 12:42: "By order of the Fuhrer ... attack north-west of Arras is to be limited to the general line Lens-Bethune-Aire-St Omer-Gravelines. The Canal will not be crossed."[48][49] Later that day, Hitler issued Directive 13, which called for the Luftwaffe to defeat the trapped Allied forces and stop their escape.[50] At 15:30 on 26 May, Hitler ordered the panzer groups to continue their advance, but most units took another 16 hours to attack.[51] The delay gave the Allies time to prepare defences vital for the evacuation and prevented the Germans from stopping the Allied retreat from Lille.[52]

The halt order has been the subject of much discussion by historians.[53][54] Guderian considered the failure to order a timely assault on Dunkirk to be one of the major German mistakes on the Western Front.[55] Rundstedt called it "one of the great turning points of the war",[56] and Manstein described it as "one of Hitler's most critical mistakes".[57] B. H. Liddell Hart interviewed many of the generals after the war and put together a picture of Hitler's strategic thinking on the matter. Hitler believed that once Britain's troops left continental Europe, they would never return.[58]

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lang

Bruce, I have not read that book but several others of the period, all with different perspectives. References are easy as you just take the bits that fit your argument, even out of context, as anyone writing a paper for a university assignment will tell you. Look impressive though.

I have read two books on the Hess incident, one claims he was an authorised Hitler emissary and the other that he was an extremely strange fellow doing his own thing.

The "Halt to negotiate" theory loses ground in my view. If you are negotiating in good faith, even hoping for the others to come across to your side as you suggest, why would you continue to kill thousands of people by air attack during the so called reprieve period?

I think the most likely is - They are cornered like rats in a trap against the sea, with nowhere to go. We are only going to lose hundreds of our blokes in an assault why not just starve them out and terrify them with bombing until they come to their senses and give up. Whether this idea came from the field commander, Army Headquarters or Hitler personally doesn't really matter.

Lang

I've read several accounts as well, and agree many are selective in promoting their version (ever figure out who Jack the Ripper really was? There's a significant number of options to choose from) but read the book and judge for yourself. I cant recall any other account that puts all the pieces together with reference to period documents, diaries, hansard, etc. If all that material exists yet could point to another conclusion I'd love to hear it.

[Lang]

All the drama and publicity of Dunkirk has submerged a smaller but much more dramatic fighting withdrawal from Boulogne at the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Boulogne_(1940)

Lang