"somewhere in England" … part of a RCAF Halifax Squadron

[Dennis Cardy]

Came across a wartime photo album today of another young man in the RCAF.

Around the time uncle Doug was building anti-Japanese airfields in British Columbia..

This Prairie boy was "somewhere in England" …part of a RCAF Halifax Squadron.

He was Aircrew..yet took shots of the airfield being worked on..

Any idea what the truck…lorry..would be.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Came across a wartime photo album today of another young man in the RCAF.

Around the time uncle Doug was building anti-Japanese airfields in British Columbia..

This Prairie boy was "somewhere in England" …part of a RCAF Halifax Squadron.

He was Aircrew..yet took shots of the airfield being worked on..

Any idea what the truck…lorry..would be.

The truck looks like a Karrier Bantam

[Dennis Cardy]

Had to go Off-Line for a few minutes to research Karrier Bantam..
Completely unknown to my North American upbringing
Seems like a match..
Thanks.

[Dennis Cardy]

This kid from Moose Jaw ends up on an airbase in Britain..

Dropped off by the side of the runway as their plane is taxied-up to be handed over for their next mission..

[Dennis Cardy]

Trying to figure out what Halifax Sqn. this could be.

...and not sure what aircrew role he played..But the shot of the rear turret might be a clue.

But safe to say here's the crew bus he rode on.

Can you tell me what I'm looking at..??

about the lorry I mean..

For some reason the young aircrew photographer included the drivers ..

[cliff]

QL Bedford

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Trying to figure out what Halifax Sqn. this could be.

...and not sure what aircrew role he played..But the shot of the rear turret might be a clue.

But safe to say here's the crew bus he rode on.

Can you tell me what I'm looking at..??

about the lorry I mean..

For some reason the young aircrew photographer included the drivers ..

Lorry is a Bedford QL, the Halifax is a Mk III, the three Canadian Halifax squadrons were 408, 419 and 420, all part of 6 Group, Bomber Command.
The brevet on the man on the right looks like an air gunner, sometimes they were also qualified as wireless operators.

[Dennis Cardy]

Would this be an aircrew bus..?

On the original photo are the following numbers.

XX 5585 on the cab front cowling Passenger side.

37906 on the passenger side fender.

And RAF 158690 on the driver's door.

Can you tell me what these number's mean…?

[Dennis Cardy]

Cliff and Keith…a QL. Thanks.

Keith…Yes..6 Group. Unfortunately his album leaves out a lot of details.

The best lead I've had so far is the nose markings on his Halifax.

Anyone recognize it..??

[Grant Bowker]

I think there's a very good chance the Bedford is a QLT Troop carrier. According to The Observer's Fighting Vehicles Directory (World War II) it had a capacity of 29 troops and was based on a lengthened chassis.

[Dennis Cardy]

The reason I ask about those numbers on the QL ..…
It might possibly tie-in with a specific one of the RCAF "400" squadrons..Over there...

[Dennis Cardy]

Another RCAF Halifax Crew Bus from the McCaw album.

This one is 36410. TYFC 1300 on the door. Can anyone shed light on what those numbers mean..?

I assume from what Cliff…Keith...and Grant have contributed..It's also a Bedford QL. Troop Carrier.

Can you tell me if that loading door and entry step just behind the cab was an Airforce mod..or standard Troop Carrier..?

[Grant Bowker]

Based on limited sources, I believe the side entry door in the troop body is one of the characteristics of the troop carrier body - not uniquely air force.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Another RCAF Halifax Crew Bus from the McCaw album.

This one is 36410. TYFC 1300 on the door. Can anyone shed light on what those numbers mean..?

I assume from what Cliff…Keith...and Grant have contributed..It's also a Bedford QL. Troop Carrier.

Can you tell me if that loading door and entry step just behind the cab was an Airforce mod..or standard Troop Carrier..?

Hi,
As Grant says, this is a normal troop carrier body on the QLT, same as the ones used by the army. The lettering on the door is TYPE 1300 which means it is designated as a "3 ton Standard Tender".

[Dennis Cardy]

Richard…and others..

These photographs are from the Canadian Museum of Flight collection at Langley B.C.

Have been working with the archivist trying to figure out how it fits in with 6 Group.

W.O. McCaw also took shots of this unknown car during some sort of Airforce outing.

Was it a staff car…or privately owned ..?

The album provides a fascinating glimpse into daily Sqn life.

For a "Fly Boy" he sure liked his vehicles…

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Richard…and others..

These photographs are from the Canadian Museum of Flight collection at Langley B.C.

Have been working with the archivist trying to figure out how it fits in with 6 Group.

W.O. McCaw also took shots of this unknown car during some sort of Airforce outing.

Was it a staff car…or privately owned ..?

The album provides a fascinating glimpse into daily Sqn life.

For a "Fly Boy" he sure liked his vehicles…

Dennis,
it is either an Impressed car ( no RAF serials on it) or one belonging to one of the servicemen. I see it does not have blackout masks on the headlamps, is it post end of War?

[Dennis Cardy]

You raise valid points.
He de-mobbed July of 45..so the photo could well be just as the war ended..

Agreed…No RAF Serials.
Understand Officers were sometimes allowed private vehicles .

Will have to delve deeper into his album..

[Mike K]

Similar to this , a friend of mine , his father

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread...hepard-s-Grove

[David Dunlop]

Dennis. As Keith mentioned, the three RCAF Halifax Squadrons were, 408, 419 and 420. If the photos you have posted are of the Mk III Halifax, then we can rule out 419 Squadron. They apparently only ever flew the Halifax Mk II out of Middleton St. George, Durham, from November 1942 until April 1944 when they switched to the Lancaster X.

408 Squadron flew the Halifax Mk III from September 1944 through May 1945 from a base at Linton-on-Ouse, Yorkshire.

420 Squadron flew the Halifax Mk III from December 1943 through May 1945 from a base at Tholthorpe, Yorkshire.

Might be worth looking for any wartime photos from the two Yorkshire bases. The buildings in the background of the two Bedford photos might ID which base these photos came from. Note the odd tower behind a number of single story buildings with angled strapping on their roofs. I thought at first the tower was the control building but it seems to lack windows, so now I am thinking radar or perhaps a water tower.

David

[David Dunlop]

Just to be clear. The three RCAF Squadrons I mentioned in my previous post are by no means the only ones to ever fly the Halifax Mk III. Several were equipped with the Mk III prior to transferring to other theatres and at least one was a training unit somewhere in Yorkshire. It is interesting, however, that most Canadian Halifax Squadrons spent some time at bases in Yorkshire.

On that note, I looked into the licence plate on the photo Dennis posted. In the pre-1951 British Registration system, the 'BV' Plates were issued in Preston, Lancashire, just North of Manchester and not far from the Yorkshire border. Tholthorpe, Yorkshire was a common RCAF Halifax Base and underwent a large rebuild in the early 1940's which the RCAF was involved in. Also, if you look the base up on Wikipedia, there is a photo there of some of the abandoned buildings. One is a long, low brick structure that is a good fit for the ones in the Bedford photos. And Tholthorpe is not that far from Manchester.

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Just to be clear. The three RCAF Squadrons I mentioned in my previous post are by no means the only ones to ever fly the Halifax Mk III. Several were equipped with the Mk III prior to transferring to other theatres and at least one was a training unit somewhere in Yorkshire. It is interesting, however, that most Canadian Halifax Squadrons spent some time at bases in Yorkshire.

On that note, I looked into the licence plate on the photo Dennis posted. In the pre-1951 British Registration system, the 'BV' Plates were issued in Preston, Lancashire, just North of Manchester and not far from the Yorkshire border. Tholthorpe, Yorkshire was a common RCAF Halifax Base and underwent a large rebuild in the early 1940's which the RCAF was involved in. Also, if you look the base up on Wikipedia, there is a photo there of some of the abandoned buildings. One is a long, low brick structure that is a good fit for the ones in the Bedford photos. And Tholthorpe is not that far from Manchester.

David

David,
To narrow the search down a bit you need to look for evidence in the photos regarding date period. Firstly regarding the car, which I think is a Hillman with the rad grille missing. The registration BV was for Blackburn , Lancs. BV1 -BV9999 reg numbers cover a registration issue period from 1930 to 1939, and at a rough guess the car was probably registered about 1933-35.

Now the Bedford QLT Troopers, I can narrow them down as they have hub sling plates introduced at Chassis no. 26372 and cab hip ring introduced at Chassis no. 29117. QL production records show that 1943 ran from Ch.no. 18162 to 30340, so these wagons were probably photographed in 1944 or later as they have to have been built in last couple of months of 1943. Also some photos show the QL with no headlamp mask and also illuminated 'Coach' sign on the top, so these would be taken post-VE Day by my reckoning, same as car with no headlamp masks.

[Andrew H.]

Are you sure its a Hillman? That looks like the winged Austin sign to me.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Are you sure its a Hillman? That looks like the winged Austin sign to me.

Andrew,
The Hillman badge also had wings on it, not only that but the bonnet louvers match a c.1934 Hillman Minx.

[David Dunlop]

Richard. With regards to the British motor vehicle registration system, am I correct in thinking that when a particular plate code references a given location, that location is merely the central registration office for a given territory, and that territory could be quite expansive in some situations?

In the case of this Hillman, could the territory assigned the BV plates, include part of Yorkshire, or do the registration territories never cross county borders?

The more I look at these photos, the more it strikes me how relaxed everyone looks. Not much tension showing in the faces at all. Seems more and more likely they could be post VE Day snaps.

Back the Hillman again, does it have a white painted front bumper? Wasn't a set of full white bumpers, or at least white painted bumper ends, a fairly common blackout practice during the war? Was there an official end to blackout conditions post war, or did it just happen?

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Richard. With regards to the British motor vehicle registration system, am I correct in thinking that when a particular plate code references a given location, that location is merely the central registration office for a given territory, and that territory could be quite expansive in some situations?

In the case of this Hillman, could the territory assigned the BV plates, include part of Yorkshire, or do the registration territories never cross county borders?

The more I look at these photos, the more it strikes me how relaxed everyone looks. Not much tension showing in the faces at all. Seems more and more likely they could be post VE Day snaps.

Back the Hillman again, does it have a white painted front bumper? Wasn't a set of full white bumpers, or at least white painted bumper ends, a fairly common blackout practice during the war? Was there an official end to blackout conditions post war, or did it just happen?

David

David,
Registrations of motor vehicles back then were done with local or county councils, so in this case it was Blackburn in Lancashire. The number stayed with the vehicle wherever it ended up in the country, but could be transferred to another vehicle. In those days there were more local registration offices, they then were reduced to county councils, and eventually centralised in present times under a central government agency.

My mother had been a policewoman before I cam along and she taught me at an early age, the registration letters and where the vehicle originated from, which still comes in useful when looking at older vehicles.

So back to the car, which I am sure is a 1934 Hillman Minx, its registration does not tell you too much other than it was from the next county, if you are guessing the picture was taken in Yorkshire. White bumper, sometimes white edging to the front wings. According to a quick search the blackout restrictions were lifted on 30th April 1945.

[Dennis Cardy]

Richard and David,
Very interesting reading what you have posted..So much so...
Just back from making a return trip to the CMF archive.

Took a second look at Mc Caw's photo album.

Can find no mention of what base he was on. He does record photo locations when training back in Canada ….and Oversea's at #1 A.T.U. at Wigton and #20 O.T.U. at Lossiemouth …both in Scotland.

But when he arrived on OP's…no more mention in the album of which Sqn or which airfield. I can only assume he did that on purpose.

I guess the next step, now we have it narrowed down to 408 or 420 is to contact the Halifax group back in Ontario…and see if they recognize the nose markings.

In the meantime here he is with Sqn mates…Would that be a "Tilly"

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

In the meantime here he is with Sqn mates…Would that be a "Tilly"

Yes, a Hillman tilly

[Bryan L]

Dennis,
Apologies for reopening an old thread but i was going through the RAF related ones and wondered whether you got any further with this?
The final photo shows a Tilly belonging to a station of 100 group. The two Halifax photos show machines of 192 Squadron, with one of them being MZ817 "Pete the Penguin": https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...at=photographs


192 Squadron were very interesting; one of the first ELINT squadrons, they would fly with the bomber stream and monitor the different frequencies for new radar equipment being used by the Germans. They also mapped out the extent of German radar coverage.

EDIT: I Knew had a few random months of 192 Sqn's ORB somewhere on my hard drive. I can confirm that J. A. McCaw was in 192 Squadron, at least in October 1944: