Ford/Marmon-Herrington Umbau-Wagen

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra in CMP Umbau-Wagen
W&T 31, p.2: The Wehrmacht's Umbauwagen article also brought reactions. Some excellent shots of Wehrmacht photographer's origin included Morris-Commercial PU- and CS8-based Kübels and this example on a 1940 Ford/Marmon-Herrington 4x4 chassis used by the Luftwaffe 'somewhere in Europe' (or North Africa?). Other views show that with the exception of a rather crude windscreen (possibly a retrofit) it was a well-proportioned and good-looking car, with full-length running boards, but no Notek BO driving lamp. It's the ½-ton Ford Commercial type, Model 01C, with car style front end and left-hand drive, but we can't tell what and whose it was prior to capture and conversion.

Here's another interesting picture of a 1939 1-ton Ford-Marmon/Herrington with German Kübelwagen bodywork (source: Reinhard Frank, Ford im Kriege).
It is similar to the one shown above, but the body is shorter. This Umbau-Wagen or Kfz.15 (Behelf) was tested extensively in Köln, Germany. The body from the cowl rearwards is clearly of German origin, but where did the chassis/cowl come from?

H.

[Bill Murray]

Another such???
Bill

[nuyt]

Bill, your pic (great find!) looks to me like a Belgian Army Marmon-Herrington staffcar. The people look like Belgian army types as well. I don't think it is an Umbauwagen, but an Antwerp or otherwise Belgian product.

See also this thread on the Overvalwagen Forum:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1094886876

About Hanno's pics: Pardon my ignorance, but could M-H have commercially supplied its conversion kits to Ford in Germany in 1939? If Ford was producing there, GM as well, why not could M-H have sold its stuff to or through Ford-Cologne?

And btw, didn't Ford Cologne also supply Ford COE trucks with M-H all wheel drive to Rumania well into WW2?


Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I suggest Belgian as well. Chassis assembled by Ford in Antwerpen/Anvers. As to Romania, this was a subsidiary of Ford of Britain, and vehicles were supplied by Dagenham for assembly although the diverted [undeliverable] vehicles were sequestred by the Ministry of Supply..hence 'R' prefixes before the model number. These were Models R01T, left hand drive, with 01T front ends ex-USA, shipped to Dagenham and then meant to be shipped on. These were bodied as panel vans or converrted to ambulances.

I have never seen any reference to M-H sales to Ford Werke, Koln, although we now know that there were secret US truck sales, namely the WIFO trucks, which were assembled in Koln and then supplied to the German forces. I seem to recall seeing pix in WHEELS & TRACKS of Koln's answer to the Opel Allrad Blitz trucks, with 4-wheel drive. This would have been an idigenous transmission layout.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I agree, Belgium is most likely - especially since the Germans must have captured at least several dozens of 1-ton Ford/Marmon-Herrington chassis/cowls which had not been converted when the Germans invaded - see the thread Mystery Fords?

I like Nuyt's "ignorant" suggestion, though! From 1937-1939, Ford Köln sold V8-51 trucks to the Wehrmacht, and by 1938 General Schell, Director of Motorisation for the Wehrmacht, introduced a far-sighted plan to cut back on the numerous different makes of commercially-based vehicles in service. The Schell-Programm proposed to procure just a few standard chassis. This was both a threat and an opportunity for Ford Köln. If this is a factory-fresh 1939 model Ford-Marmon/Herrington, it could very well have been Ford Köln's proposal for the Mittlerer Personenkraftwagen (Medium Personnel Car) class. All that Reinhard Frank knows about it is that it "was tested extensively in Köln, Germany". Like Ford, Marmon-Herrington was selling their products all over the world to anyone willing to pay, so why not to Germany?
In the end, however, Horch (Auto-Union) was to build the Einheits programme vehicles in the medium chassis class, and they were also the main builders of the Einheits programme heavy chassis cars. Possibly as a recognition of their efforts, Ford Köln got a contract for some 2000 examples of the Schwerer Einheits Personenkraftwagen during 1939-1941 (when the Einheits models were pahsed out of manufacture). Ford Köln's s.E.Pkw was a built exactly as designed by Horch, except for fitting their own 3.6 litre 78 hp. V8 engine. And they were the first and last 4x4 vehicles built by Ford Köln during WW2.

I think we're onto something, aren't we?!?

H.

[Bill Murray]

I really hate it when I do this.
Pat beat me to the shower this morning and I had 10 extra minutes to get on the internet and decided to answer Hanno's post. Took me most of that time to find the misfiled pic I posted.
By the time I found it, I was out of time and had to run and just sort of stuck it up here with a couple of words.

In any case, yes, it is a Belgian Staff/Officers car as originally built and probably looking very like the pic on Nuyt's site but with the top up. It was not my intent to say it was an Umbau-Wagen but rather the possible basis for one.

So, what do we really know about these Ford/Marmon Herrington vehicles?? That they were procured in at least some numbers by Belgium and Holland, absolutely no doubt. That they were, in some form or another, tested by the German Forces as something they might have produced to more or less the same design seems quite likely and is the subject for an interesting research project.
We also know that the US procured at least some but it did not come to any volume production. I seem to recollect that I have seen or may even have buried in my collection, pics of similar vehicles in Romania, Hungary and the Baltic countries but these may have been German vehicles captured in Holland and Belgium.
To return to Germany, I sort of lost track of Bart's quest for the answer to the "WIFO" Ford story and so do not remember if he ever solved it or not. I would have to go back through the W&T collection to find out more.
And, yes, Nuyt, I believe there are pics out there of Ford/Marmon Herrington vehicles supplied to Romania as late as the 1941 year model. I think Bart's book has a photo.
Bill

[nuyt]

Bill, Hanno, David,

In my ignorance I always mix up Axis powers and powered axles.

Yes, Romania employed Ford/M-H COE trucks as prime movers and there are pics of these in Vanderveen pre-1940 book.

But I meant Hungary. According to Vanderveen (1989 Directory p.114 and 208), Ford Cologne built American 1939 pattern 4x2 Fords during 1939-42 and sent no less than 1500 of these Ford G917's to Manfred Weiss in Hungary.

Front-drive components were added by Manfred Weiss "to Marmon-Herrington design". The Fords were called Ford G917T 'Marmon' in Hungarian service.

So, at least Weiss (we know them for building Turan tanks and Straussler designed armoured cars similar to the Alvis-Straussler AC3 series) received the design of M-H axles through Ford Cologne and apparently took the initiative to paste and copy.
But the Hungarians acknowledged the origin of the FWD version, as it ('Marmon') appeared in the name of the truck!

Or did Manfred Weiss have a licence after all? Even when war was raging they took the effort to procure licences from Ford. The Ford V3000S was licence-produced by MW from 1941-44.

Greetings,
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think Bart settled on the WIFO Fords as heavy trucks that were assembled 'in secret' after normal shifts. I can imagine that licenses were requested and taken up, judging by evidence that I found from GM in Germany pre-war records. The problem was one oif settlement of licence fees, and these may have never been paid unless a barter arrangement was set up, or, as I suspect, the components were delivered to Antwerpen/Anvers plant and then railed across the border. I have ample evidence that GM achieved this with Opel and GM Continental [just across the basin in the docks from Ford Belgium].

[nuyt]

From Wheels and Tracks 30:

"A recaptured Kuebel with as its foundation a Ford/M-H 4x4 chassis, probably an ex-Belgian Army Model 91Y".

Well, I do not think so: It's similar to the one on Hanno's pic. Why would the German army bother to rebuild captured Belgian Ford/M-H's? They were all staffcars anyway. They did not rebuild the Daf-Ford and Chevy staffcars and Pag-trekkers either.

Maybe Ford Cologne produced a small series of these after all?

Greetings ,
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by nuyt

From Wheels and Tracks 30:

"A recaptured Kuebel with as its foundation a Ford/M-H 4x4 chassis, probably an ex-Belgian Army Model 91Y".

Well, I do not think so: It's similar to the one on Hanno's pic. Why would the German army bother to rebuild captured Belgian Ford/M-H's? They were all staffcars anyway. They did not rebuild the Daf-Ford and Chevy staffcars and Pag-trekkers either.

Maybe the Germans would bother because they must have captured at least several dozens of 1-ton Ford/Marmon-Herrington chassis/cowls which had not yet been converted when the Germans invaded - see the thread Mystery Fords?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

see the thread Mystery Fords?

Thread merged into this one.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another Umbau-wagen: a Ford/Marmon-Herrington chassis / cowl, presumably ex-Belgium, turned into a Kfz.12 (or Kfz.15).

Picture from p. 257 of British Military Trucks in Wehrmacht Service (where it is incorrectly indentified as a left-hand drive WOC-1 8-cwt 4x2 truck).

[nuyt]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...ghlight=marmon

Thanks Bill!

Nuyt
Overvalwagens!

[Bill Murray]

Nuyt:
If I forgot to pass on that link to you, please accept my apologies. Today is my first real day off from the store since 25 November and I am sure I missed a lot of things. I am just now trying to get caught up and probably have a couple of other items I need to get either to you direct or here on MLU.
Also, go to www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1404 for a series on Romanian trucks including several Fords.
Bill

[nuyt]

to apologize, Bill, I thought it was just funny!
Anyway, I scrounged this picture from the Tanks! website:

A Romanian 1940 Ford/M-H 4x4 COE artillery tractor with Romanian body:

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I suggest Belgian as well. Chassis assembled by Ford in Antwerpen/Anvers.

I have never seen any reference to M-H sales to Ford Werke, Koln, although we now know that there were secret US truck sales, namely the WIFO trucks, which were assembled in Koln and then supplied to the German forces. I seem to recall seeing pix in WHEELS & TRACKS of Koln's answer to the Opel Allrad Blitz trucks, with 4-wheel drive. This would have been an idigenous transmission layout.

Is this a Belgian Ford built by Ford Koln? I think it is post war.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I was reading late last night Bart Vanderveen's article on the 1943 German Ford COE 4 x 4 chassis. I have no idea whether the wartime COE 4 x 4 that they produced used a copy of the M-H transfer case...not having seen a M-H casing close-up save that Bart claims that the Ford had nothing to do with M-H!

The Romanian factory was a subsidiary of the British company as you know. The Ford Motor Company Limited and probably Henry Ford and Son Limited of Cork, Eire were with Ford Werke AG subsidiaries of the Ford Motor Company of Dearborn. All other Ford companies were subsidiaries of Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited. I have just found that in 1938-9 Ford of Britain offered both 8-cwt and 30-cwt chassis converted to 4 x 4 with M-H components. Given that Dagenham supplied the Romanian factory with US-style vehicles, the Romanian trucks could have been exported from Dagenham. However it is equally likely that they and the Hungarian operation were supplied by Koln. The reason I suggest this is that the Romanian 1940 models that had been ordered were not able to be delivered from Dagenham and so were taken on by the Ministry of Supply. This would have left a gap for the German arm of the empire to step in. Bart suggested that Koln produced their last 4 x 4 in 1956, and used the same type of front wheel drive as the wartime COE Koln product! Bart says that the Hungarian operation assembled a 4 x 4 version of the German Ford with M-H technology with normal control and soft-top cab.

Opel supplied the Hungarian Army with Opel cars and trucks for instance, although Yugoslavia received direct Chevrolet military truck exports in 1940 from the US and not from Opel.

I would like to know whether the Fordson 4 x 4 drivetrain owed anything to M-H, and whether Dagenham licence-built transfer cases etc.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
This would have left a gap for the German arm of the empire to step in. Bart suggested that Koln produced their last 4 x 4 in 1955, and used the same type of front wheel drive as the wartime COE Koln product!

Did Ford Köln produce a 4x4 truck during WW2?

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Officially Model V3000A, Ford Koln model G198TWA of 1943. The transfer case, front axle castings and forgings were prefixed G19TA. These were launched in1942, and 758 were built 1943-44.


The 1956 model was apparently the FK4500A/G700 4 x 4. If the 1953 FK 3500/G798BA used the Marmon-Herrington/Ford transfer case, does this mean that the '56 model alo used M-H components? It appears that Koln produced their own casing to M-H design.

[chrisgrove]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward (RIP)

Officially Model V3000A, Ford Koln model G198TWA of 1943. The transfer case, front axle castings and forgings were prefixed G19TA. These were launched in1942, and 758 were built 1943-44.


The 1956 model was apparently the FK4500A/G700 4 x 4. If the 1953 FK 3500/G798BA used the Marmon-Herrington/Ford transfer case, does this mean that the '56 model alo used M-H components? It appears that Koln produced their own casing to M-H design.

All my references reckon that Ford-Koln built a 3 ton 4x4 truck for the Bundeswehr (must have been about 1956) which was known as the G398 SAM. No idea whether it owed anything to M-H though.

Chris (only a modeller)

[Bill Murray]

Hi All:

The photo below has been sitting on AHF for a while now, begging a positive Id.

It is thought to be a Ford Marmon-Herrington and basically, I agree. But, it seems to be a real "bitser".

1. If we start at the front, the front bumper appears to be a normal one for the 1939 Ford 1 1/2 ton truck.

2. If we then look at the grille/headlamp guard, it gets interesting. the guard looks to be "series production" as opposed to home made. However, it does not match any of the French Contract guards, not the Romanian ones, just nothing but the 1939 style used on prewar US MH trucks and that just does not seem reasonable to be in use by the LW.

3. Looking at the wheels/tyres, after looking at hundreds of combinations, it looks to me like the front wheel/tyre combination is 10:50x16 with a tread pattern seen mostly on the British Fordson Sussex 6x4 series in that size.

4. Moving to the body itself, it looks to me like a vehicle that was either cut down from a chassis/cab unit or perhaps even a New Zealand chassis/open cab variant. The doors are intact up to the point where you can see a "cutoff".
The windscreen is obviously specially constructed.

5. The rear body escapes me for the moment. It looks to be a "series production" body but I cannot place it.

6. The rear wheels are another mystery. Some feel that they are dual rear wheels, others that it is a very narrow replacement rear body that is much narrower than a normal body on this chassis and it has single rear wheels. As dual rear wheels were an option on the 1 1/2 ton MH Ford chassis, I lean in that direction.

So, can any of you MH experts ID this one??

Edit: Sorry, the 3d photo is a Canadian MH but the NZ vehicle looked almost identical.



Bill

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Bill Murray

Edit: Sorry, the 3d photo is a Canadian MH but the NZ vehicle looked almost identical.

Hi Bill,
The third photo is of an Australian MH if I am not mistaken.

regards, Richard

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, it is Australian ... actually Colin Anderson's restoration where he attempted to replicate a 'Tractor, Artillery, Aust No.4' (or 4A), which was designed as the LAA tractor. The rear body is one he put together.

Image appears to have been taken at Corowa, in the early years when Col's tractor was still green. That's a much younger Col sitting in the passenger seat with his arm out the window. Don't know who is driving, but Col was always very generous, so it could be any of us!

Mike

[jack neville]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Yes, it is Australian ... actually Colin Anderson's restoration where he attempted to replicate a 'Tractor, Artillery, Aust No.4' (or 4A), which was designed as the LAA tractor. The rear body is one he put together.

Interesting to note that the push bars on the front bumper are actually the door stop from the rear of a No.27 Limber

[Bill Murray]

Hi Richard:

Snap..............

I guess we are always at the risk of depending to a certain extent on the identifications provided to us on various websites.

That photo,and some others, have been identified as Australian/New Zealand and Canadian at least in terms of the "generic" Ford MH vehicle.

In any case, if you have some ideas, I would love to see them.

Bill

[cliff]

The cab has been cut down from a full cab model and a new screen built. Rear body is missing the nice round Ford mudguards as seen in your second photo which makes it look odd. Wheels are the same as those on a few Hungarian Ford, Ford M/H photos I have as well as normal civilian type wheels. Rear body is narrow but so are those found on DAF made Ford M/H's.

Have I confused the issue enough now

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Officially Model V3000A, Ford Koln model G198TWA of 1943. The transfer case, front axle castings and forgings were prefixed G19TA. These were launched in1942, and 758 were built 1943-44

Ah yes, I remember it now.


Source: http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gfordde.htm

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Is this a Belgian Ford built by Ford Koln? I think it is post war.

Correct, it is a Belgian Army ambulance built in the 1950s by Ford Köln - see/hear more at http://www.fordkeulen.nl/.

They came in 4x4 configuration, too.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Back to the subject!

This picture was autioned on Ebay as WWII German Photo - Luftwaffe CAR Item number: 140003697229

[Hanno Spoelstra]

And another 1939 Ford with with German Kübelwagen bodywork. It does not look like it has a Marmon-Herrington 4-wheel drive conversion, though.