Scout T5329

[Ben]

Hi Tony

I agree that a trunnion method similar to what you have drawn could be a good answer to the problem. It's very similar to what I'd imagined the fitting would look like.

The square hole does suggest that it's for stopping rotation but the springs aren't a counterbalance, they're far too strong. Even with the leverage of the gun you'd have to really force against the springs for any sort of evlevation, you can't compress them with your hand.

There are pictures of Scouts in a line and the gun barrels are all at the same angle and another at different angles, this suggests that they're free to move. The part at the rear of the flat rotation plate is a rubber rest. I've assumed that the gun sits against this when not in use, when needed the gunner lifts the butt and has free movement in a similar fashion to the way the Bren mount is used.

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount, no real answers. Discussion here is good as it gets us all thinking.

Thanks

Ben

[Ben]

All at the rest position?

[Ben]

Different angles but whilst at rest.

[David Dunlop]

Ben.

This is a very interesting little piece of kit. Full of mysteries at the moment.

I have been looking at the photo you posted of the mount installed in your Carrier. I agree those are very hefty springs, clearly designed to push everything back into a 'resting position' whenever necessary. When i look at the top of the two spring assemblies, it appears as if the centre rods of the springs are fastened to the upper mount arm by some sort of heavy machine screw or bolt. It also appears as if the outer face of the upper, or forward metal supports are machined away at the top of each central rod assembly. This would suggest they have been designed to allow a certain amount of movement against the springs before reaching a full stop.

My thoughts on this for what they are worth.

The square hole on the right hand side of the mount would allow for only two practical positions for placement of whatever adapter was fitted to the Boys Rifle. Essentially a high and low position. Would this serve any practical purpose in the Carrier.

The Boys Rifle would be long enough to act as a lever against those two springs. It does look like the lower horizontal hinge pin allows for most of the potential elevation of the Boys Rifle, but if you elevated the rifle to the limit of that pin, would the spring assemblies kick in to allow just a little bit more height adjustment and serve as a warning you are running out of elevation?

David

[Lynn Eades]

I would think that with the Boys reputation for "kicking like a mule", that the springs are there to soften recoil.
If the unknown (still missing) mounting assembly was free to rotate in its self, then that would work.
Maybe the square is to help it stay tight in the clamps?
I would doubt any "field mods" were carried out to mount these rifles.

[Ben]

Hi David

OK, so two people have said the springs are a "balance" rather than for recoil so I've been out to the workshop and had a play.

I've fixed a bar onto the front plate at the height of the square hole (accepted pivot or mounted height) to simulate the back of the gun, sitting in the gunners seat you literally have to hang onto the bar to get it to move a tiny amount. you'd need to me a power lifter to move the bar to any sort of useful amount. Trying to fire a rifle whilst using all your strength/body weight to get the required elevation doesn't seem very practical.

They are very strong springs and they push forward. For them to balance the gun surely they'd need to allow movement up and down? At the minute the gunner would have to be holding the gun under an enormous amount of strain to even move it off the fully forward position. There is only really movement backwards and that is using a lot of force.

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps. Once the trigger has been pulled the rearward force of the shot is absorbed by the spring and then it returns to the forward position.

Ben

[David Dunlop]

Nice practical test, Ben. Never having seen a Boys up close and in person it makes sense to me.

If the mystery square pin adapter was fitted to the rifle, it would appear to place the line of the barrel at, or just above the top of the two side wing nuts that clamp everything into place. That is very likely just high enough for the force of the recoil to rock the upper portion of the mount back against the springs, before they hit the angled stops and absorb a chunk of the recoil energy. The springs then return the rifle to the 'ready position' as it were.

For balance, I think the springs would need to be arranged in some fashion between the gun itself and the mount body. These springs look contained within the mount itself.

Ever considered emailing some photos of the mount to the Enfield Pattern Room in England? They might just have details on the missing piece.

David

PS: The contact for the Enfield Pattern Room is enquiries@armouries.org.uk

The photos of the mount alone, in situ in the carrier and Tony's two of the potential adapter for the Boys rifle would probably narrow the search down for them, Ben.

[kevin powles]

I think those two springs are actually boys rifle buffer tube recoil springs.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps.

Yes, if the springs are as strong as you describe they can only be for recoil, which means rotation must occur between the clamps as you say Ben. However it's unclear to me exactly how this would be achieved. I suspect it means the cradle itself must be modified, as the monopod pivot point seems too low to be used. That is, the barrel would strike the top of the hull aperture upon elevation. Seems to me the gun needs to sit lower in the clamp. You could try using a string line to determine the required pivot point.

It's certainly a brain teaser, you may need to get hold of an actual Boys to figure it all out.


IMG_5164 - Copy.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount

Now you've got me doing it too Ben!


Universal Carrier Mk I with experimental armoured hood and Boys anti-tank rifle, Albury Heath, S.jpg

[RichardT10829]

Trunion ring on the rifle appears to sit level with the armour... Ben how far back is the bracket mounts from the front armour ?

Once that data is known just measure back from the Trunion on the rifle

[Ben]

The Scout is the only carrier specifically designed to have the Boys fired whilst in the vehicle. The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.
I think the gunner probably has the rifle sitting on the rubber gun rest at the bottom of the slot.

Ben

[RichardT10829]

Secondary Trunion ring adapt or fitted to the rifle which allows the mounting of the mono pod with a secondary hole for the mounting pin for the carrier cradle.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.

Ben, it has the same bolt pattern as yours so I assumed it was the same mount.

I found a video which contains brief footage of Boys rifle mount in operation over rough terrain. It almost looks like it's on springs but I guess we've ruled that out...?

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01045/

[Rich Payne]

Keith who posts on here and owns an original of the photo has posted a close-up of the gunner's position on ww2talk. Unfortunately there were a number of fatal casualties from this incident and the bodies had not yet been removed.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/3631...e-mille/page-2



Perhaps those with a knowledge of the rifle might be able to pick something out from this.

[Ben]

Hi Richard

One of the photos from the WW2 talk thread shows a partial answer.

One of the problems with photos of Scout carriers is that the Boys rifle is nearly always in the front "Boys" mount, as we've seen this makes looking at the details difficult. The rear angle shows another Boys rifle lying on its side in the LH rear compartment, you can make out a cylindrical section pointing upwards. This isn't a normal fitting on a Boys so I think we can assume it's part of the gun mount fitting. This answers the fact that it's a simple drop in type fitting IMHO. Sadly a strap is obscuring other clues. Perhaps part of a Y shaped fitting going under the gun frame? The gun in the mount doesn't seem to have anything over the top?, Hard to say. The original on WW2 talk is clearer.

Abandonded Bren carriers with Boys rifles don't have this fitting as they don't have a Boys mount.

Perhaps there's another photo out there that will make it a little clearer.

Ben