Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.

Mike, just for clarification..... in Ontario the requirement for the Slow Moving Triangle is not a requirement just for Historic Vehicle Plates.

This is in the Ontario Driver's Handbook

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion3.1.6.shtml

... "The “slow-moving vehicle” sign is an orange triangle with a red border. It alerts other drivers that the vehicle ahead will be travelling at 40 km/h or less. When on a road, farm tractors, farm implements/machinery, and vehicles not capable of sustaining speeds over 40 km/h must display the slow moving vehicle sign. Watch for these slow moving vehicles and reduce your speed as necessary. .....




In jurisprudence, ignorance of the law is not a defence. In the case of everyone with a valid drivers license, it is assumed that they are aware of the rules and regulations, and take all appropriate safety steps.

I would consider it prudent to put a "Slow Moving Vehicle" sign on the rear of a Bren carrier on any public highway. When you arrive at your destination, for display, you could then remove the sign.

What most folks do not understand, is when there is an official "parade", approved by the local competent authorities, the Highway Traffic Act is temporarily suspended on the designated section of the parade route, once the barricades are put up. That is why during a parade, a Shriner can drive a little motorcycle that looks like an airplane....

There are still other complications, such as additional municipal regulations. For example in Ottawa, anything with tracks (Bren Carrier) requires an additional permit ($$$) to drive on city streets. This is aimed at the owners of cranes and construction equipment who can cause damage to roads.

There are lots of fine (no pun intended) details when organizing such events.

With all due respect, I think the peace officer was well within his duties to issue a ticket. It was an unsafe condition.

I would hope that you always carry a break down kit with reflectors and flares.
It would not be unusual for a Bren Carrier to stop dead in it's track, and there is no way you are going to be able to push it off to the side. That much steel sitting on a highway would present a significant risk to any vehicle who slams into it.

I have a nice DND issue and German issue breakdown kit that I carry for just that purpose. Similar commercial units are available at Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, and most truck stop shops.

Stuart

[Gordon Yeo]

Just because you put a slow moving vehicle ( SMV ) sign on a vehicle doesn't absolve you of all fault if your in an accident. The SMV sign, in agricultural use, is used on vehicles of husbandry. That way when some bright light comes out from the towns and cities going 100 km and hits a farm vehicle there is a system set up for the consequences. Farm liability insurance is applied to the listed vehicles on the policy and there are some limitations. So, technically our farm equipment is insured like a truck or car.

Having been ticketed for no SMV on a carrier may be your best out come in that situation. A more in depth questioning, by a maniac cop, might have lead to discovering an unlicensed vehicle with no insurance.

When you go to the OMVA swap meet this fall it will look like a senior citizens outing, I know because I am one. A hand full of the same people have carried the organization for the last many years and they are tired of the job. There are very few young guys coming into the hobby and no one wants to take on the jobs of running the organization. Being a small far flung group of collectors maybe we should join local car clubs and fall under their organization for historic vehicle "protection". If we go to some none club event we should ask for a letter of invitation to parades and shows. That should provide proof conforming to the HVP requirements. Most local car clubs have a spring "roll out" and vehicles can be inspected for defects. These are the sort of things that the HV plate let older vehicle owners keep their vehicles on the road with some sort of over site without being costly.

I don't think that most people with a historic plated car are as annal about conforming to the rules as the thread seems. If you walk around and look at vintage vehicles, on the streets in the summer, there are many vehicles that are not being driven to the letter of the law.

It may be that the historic vehicle plate was designed and implemented with the input and co-operation of the many car clubs that try and keep vintage vehicles operating safely. I don't think that every cop on every corner is looking to jack up every HV plated vehicle, unless the driver is outside the usual traffic act laws.

[Robin Craig]

I 100% agree with Mr Yeo, as I am also a farmer.

The SMV sign is not for your carrier just as he said.

Robin

[Stuart Fedak]

From the MTO


...."A slow-moving vehicle (SMV) sign warns other road users that your vehicle is moving at 40 km/hour or less. Find out if you need one and how to display it on your vehicle......"



Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You need to display a slow-moving vehicle sign if your vehicle is not capable of reaching and sustaining a speed greater than 40 km/hour.

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles

If your slow-moving vehicle is towing something, you need to display the sign at the rear of the object being towed.

Vehicles that do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign for:
•bicycles
•mopeds
•disabled vehicles being towed
•vehicles directly crossing a road, as when a farm tractor crosses a road to move from one field to another
•horse-drawn vehicles driven by people whose religious beliefs do not permit them to use the sign. Instead, the back of the carriage must be outlined with reflective tape visible from at least 150 meters (approximately 500 ft).

Slow-moving vehicle signs are for vehicles only. You can't use them on fixed objects like mailboxes or driveway markers if they can be seen from the road.

Property owners or tenants displaying a slow-moving vehicle sign on fixed objects may be subject to a fine.

Placing a slow-moving vehicle sign

The sign should be placed on the rear of the vehicle between 0.6 meters (2 ft.) and 2 meters (6 ft.) above the roadway. It should be centred from left to right as much as possible.

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/veh...cle-sign.shtml


Robin, you may be a part time farmer, as is Gordon, that is true. It is not true that the Slow Moving Sign is for exclusive use of farmers (agriculture community). It may be used most often by farmers, as it should as they pull hay bails on trailers using agro trailers that weave in and out as they move-about.

it is for....

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles

Cheers!
Stuart

[chris vickery]

BUT... it does not replace Provincially required license plates and insurance as some users deem.
Period
Farmers and construction firms have insurance policies in effect which cover them which are outside of what most of us aquire for vehicles registered under the HTA.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

BUT... it does not replace Provincially required license plates and insurance as some users deem.
Period
Farmers and construction firms have insurance policies in effect which cover them which are outside of what most of us aquire for vehicles registered under the HTA.

3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889
1953 M38A1 CDN 53-33136
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M101 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M100 1/4T CDN trailer
1943 Chevy M6 G506
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, MVPA, G503, Willys Forum, Steel Soldiers

Chris, nice to hear from you. As the OMVA rep, what was/is the position of OMVA working with the insurance industry and MTO on the issue of "Historic Vehicles" and co-ordinating events?

Cheers!
Stuart

[chris vickery]

Other than being an area rep for the Club, I am no longer sitting President of the Club.
Please refer your queries to the current OMVA Executive.

[Gordon Yeo]

Stuart
My point about agricultural use of a SMV sign was that the farm liability policy covers our machinery with insurance. Putting a slow moving vehicle sign on any vehicle may not automatically provide insurance coverage in an accident. Fast or slow is a vehicle on a public road not supposed to be insured?

Gordon

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Gordon Yeo

Stuart
My point about agricultural use of a SMV sign was that the farm liability policy covers our machinery with insurance. Putting a slow moving vehicle sign on any vehicle may not automatically provide insurance coverage in an accident. Fast or slow is a vehicle on a public road not supposed to be insured?

Gordon

Of course, a fast or slow vehicle on a public road is supposed to be insured. If the Bren Carrier in question was driving on a public highway without insurance and registration, then he deserves far worse than a ticket for the lack of a SMV sign. A Bren carrier can be on a public road without registration and insurance, if and only if, the public road has been declared a "Parade" by the local competent authority. This is also dependent on the local municipality, and I gave the example of Ottawa, that requires another fee for tracked vehicles.

Just a reminder, this thread started out about a Licensed and registered vehicle and the difference between a standard license plate and a "Historic Vehicle" plate. Both of those plates require insurance, registration and a vehicle has passed a safety at some point of time.

Just saying, that if you have a licensed and registered vehicle of any sort, that can not keep up with 40 km/hr, it should have the SMV.

The OP can comment if his Bren Carrier was actually licensed and insured at the time, and what plates (if any) it had. If he was not licensed and insured at the time (I have no idea if this is even possible for a Bren carrier in Ontario), then he deserved some sort of ticket and fine.

Stuart

[Phil Waterman]

My solution to slower than flow of traffic. Is an international orange, air requisition panel covering the tailgate, at least if they run in to the truck they look stupid if the say they didn’t see the truck.

Notice that I said “slower than flow of traffic” one of the problems I encounter is traffic that is as much as 20 MPH over the posted speed. So even if you can do the speed limit there can be a problem.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and similar threads concerning other locations. Seems that a jumble of rules from Province to Province, State to State and Country to Country is pretty much normal. One of the problems which I suspect is a constant underlying problem concerning antique vehicles is the lack of knowledge of the average officer trying to enforce laws. They just don’t have to deal with antique vehicle laws that often.

Every time they change the laws concerning antique vehicles in my home state there are a spat of problems experience by club members. The more the antique vehicle rules are different from the norm the more common the problem. Examples having inspection month different from registration month and then doing away with inspections for Antique plates older than a certain age. I’m still getting stopped for that one every now and then. Never tell the officer he is wrong, instead ask it as a question, Oh this is a 1945 and isn’t that covered by vehicles built before 1949 don’t have to be inspected?

As a good thought provoking thread

Cheers Phil