Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Darrin Wright]

Interesting thread.
My LP1 BGC was produced at Newport Workshops in 1941 and issued to a Signals unit, 4th Div in Sept 41, Balcombe Vic.

There is a near new original paint sample under the dash, with a bit of a wash/clean up; I have tried to take some pics of it for this thread for identification and comparison.
I realise that lighting, camera settings and screen resolutions will/may vary the pictures. I have included a WD-40 can and orange shirt/rag in the pics to provide contrast & comparison.

Also included is my paint stirrer which is darker and I matched that NOS sample at the paint shop, that was aimed for Dec 41 to mid 42.

This sample has not been affected by light and has not been repainted.

Interested in comments.

[Mrs Vampire]

I reckon Khaki Green J early version as per AWM sample cards. Nice if you could get a spectrograph onto it .

[Mrs Vampire]

Some of my theories go down the gurgler as the latest trip to the archives reveals.

In the Mp742/1 series. 325/25/58 and 325/25/9 ( 453113 and 440398).

In may 1943 the specification for three tone camo was dark green , light green and grey. The diagrams do not specify exactly what shades are being referred to save to say the dark green was KG3 .
A tiny sample of KG3 is attached to the specification. Two things of note. The specification ,though being called up in 1943 is a 1940 spec dispelling any thoughts it is somehow connected to KGJ predating that colour by many months .

In file 61/8/20 Helmets Steel No 1 Mk2 specification 1942 the paint colour called for is KG3 .
Though a document identifying the origins of KG3 has yet to be found it is clear that it predates Dakin and the colour samples held in the AWM and other places.
The second thing to note: my samples of Bob Moseley's KG3 is near as damn to the original chip in the file. I have been given access to an original tin of KG3 and will mix up a sample chip from that for a final definitive result.
Where does that leave me in terms of my quest for authentic colours??
Some way to go to demonstrate without question the green on the Stuart was KGJ . No Doubt the Light stone was the Australian version (brownish) not the British ( desert yellow) however the files reveal many vehicles in Australia in 1940/41 were British Light Stone and the British spec is cited.(325/25/58)
I have paid to have the files put on line and will post links to them here when they are .

Big thanks to Mike Cecil for the tip of on the MP742 series. sixteen thousand files ...but the paint one was gold.

[Mrs Vampire]

Further to my last post.

The file referred to earlier BC 440598 contains in it Mechanized Circular 301 ( 2 Jan 1942). That circular refers to vehicles allocated to the AIF being painted Light Stone BSC61. That is vehicles used overseas ( North Africa etc)

It also refers to the use of KG3 being the base colour for vehicles stationed in Australia . My view that the pre 1942 colour was Deep Bronze Green 24 appears from this evidence to be incorrect. KG3 appears to be the initial colour.

The Circular goes on to specify the immediate application of disruptive camouflage. There are seven schemes specified using Khaki Green J , Light Stone N, Light Brown P Dark green M, Basalt Red S and Black U .

Five of the schemes are thee tone and two of them two tone . One corresponds to both the area and scheme of my Stuart.

The three tone scheme in the RAAF Parkes video comprising light stone , Khaki Green J and Basalt red is recommended and allowed by this 1942 order . The order also includes the over-painting of proprietary colours as used by oil companies as seen in the video.

The order appears to be consistent with everything people have observed on their vehicles . Things such as KG3 Being over-painted by lighter colours or disruptive. The variety of colour schemes being discovered that were used from Jan 1942 until late 1943 when disruptive was abandoned and KG3 once again became the standard colour.

The pattern of the schemes is quite precise and the method used to mark it out specified. This is consistent with the Disruptive pattern on my Stuart corresponding to the drawings in the specification.

This means spectrographs of the AWM and AA chip sets remains a high priority for me.

Finally on the matter of KG3 I have been loaned a can of 1944 KG3 by Ewan that i will have a sample made and spectrographed. That will be the final proof so far as that colour is concerned. The question remaining ...what is its origin?

Photos below include one of a LP2 carrier two tone scheme in KG3 and Light Earth attached to the MC301 specification that is not a specified scheme. So still lots of puzzling issues.

[Mrs Vampire]

more pics

I expect the files to be online within a month or so so. Those curious enough can read them and come to their own conclusions.

[Mike K]

Back in the 1940's colour matching was done by eye , the matching was a subjective skill because all of us have different colour perception .

I am wondering how different the so called "specified" colours were to each manufacturer ? Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Mike the archive indicates the colour was done by formula.

There were six basic colours form which the rest could be made . The basic colours were made using pigment by weight. There are some photos in previous parts of this thread of the process and a copy of the formulas for the colours.
There is also considerable material in the archive about pigment and sourcing it.

It was not as hit and miss as you might think. The can of KG3 I have a loan of is a standard issue 1944 can from the manufacturer. The colour is about exact as I could imagine with the sample in the Archive and with Bob Mosely's version.

The paints were not mixed up at the local hardware store . Local purchase meant purchasing from the nearest manufacturer. Those manufactures were still required to abide by the specification and the pigments were not like the liquid squirts they use today rather they were sometimes a paste and often a powder .