Modified 25-pounder guns

[rnixartillery]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

I restored one of these for the Royal Artillery Firepower Museum at Woolwich, London. They know it as the "Jungle 25 pounder". It has a narrower axle, smaller diameter platform (to suit the narrow axle) and folding trail, other than that it is basically the same as a normal 25 pdr.

The folding trail is nothing to do with airportability, it increases the elevation when operating in jungle or hilly situations. The barrel length is same as norm as well. If I can find a photo of it, I will add it to this thread.

Richard,

So sorry to drag up this old thread but did you ever find the pictures of the gun you restored ? I am trying to determine the shield configuration between the two modified 25 pdr's.I know one had the extra flaps in the shield in front of the wheels for the drag ropes and the other without ?

Rob...............rnixartillery.

[Godwin Hampton]

According to the 1957 user handbook for the 25 pounder, the original carriage was (logically!) the Mark 1. This was modified into the narrower Mk 2, as well explained above. The Mk 3 was the Mk 2 with the joint to allow higher elevation, and no other modification. Therefore the shields (with flaps) for the Mk 2 and Mk 3 were identical.

[rnixartillery]

Originally Posted by Godwin Hampton

According to the 1957 user handbook for the 25 pounder, the original carriage was (logically!) the Mark 1. This was modified into the narrower Mk 2, as well explained above. The Mk 3 was the Mk 2 with the joint to allow higher elevation, and no other modification. Therefore the shields (with flaps) for the Mk 2 and Mk 3 were identical.

Yes that's what I thought Godwin regarding the shields, I have located a MkIII 25pdr with what I believe to have a standard cut down shield fitted ie several inches cut off each side ,most probably bodged up to make it look something like. The rest of the Gun is correct .

Thanks for the link Richard, I was at firepower in August and noticed the No 22firing platform but no sign of the Gun ?

Cheers

Rob.......................rnixartillery.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Thanks for the link Richard, I was at firepower in August and noticed the No 22firing platform but no sign of the Gun ?

Hi Rob,
I have not been there for a long time, so don't know.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

So sorry to drag up this old thread but did you ever find the pictures of the gun you restored ? I am trying to determine the shield configuration between the two modified 25 pdr's.I know one had the extra flaps in the shield in front of the wheels for the drag ropes and the other without ?

Hi Rob,
The only photo to hand at present is this one on my web page, I hope you can see the detail on it. Click on this link:
http://www.milweb.net/dealers/trader...orations/f.jpg
regards, Richard

f.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Richard, So sorry to drag up this old thread but did you ever find the pictures of the gun you restored ? I am trying to determine the shield configuration between the two modified 25 pdr's.I know one had the extra flaps in the shield in front of the wheels for the drag ropes and the other without ?

Don't be sorry, it's about time this thread was refreshed!

That one shown on Richard's site seems to have the standard width shield instead of the narrowed one. Result of a mix & match of parts during a rebuild program?


For comparison here is a front view of regular 25-pdr shield (left) and the narrowed one on the Mk.2 and Mk.3 carriages (right):

P1000886-resized.jpg P1000878-resized.JPG

See more and larger pictures of these two 25-pdr guns in my G503 album >> 25-pdr.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

I am trying to determine the shield configuration between the two modified 25 pdr's.I know one had the extra flaps in the shield in front of the wheels for the drag ropes and the other without ?

Rob,

If you need pictures I can post some more of this gun I photographed recently.

Hanno

SAM_3416 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

[rnixartillery]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If you need pictures I can post some more of this gun I photographed recently.

Yes please Hanno ! how many Narrow MkII 's and MkIII's do you know of in Belgium and Holland ?

Rob...................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Yes please Hanno ! how many Narrow MkII 's and MkIII's do you know of in Belgium and Holland ?

Rob,

Here you go. This 25-pdr is on display at the base museum at the Oranjekazerne ("Orange baracks"), Schaarsbergen (near Arnhem), The Netherlands.

Full views of the gun, note it does not have the characteristic muzzle brake:
SAM_3405 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg SAM_3408 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

Gun barrel and breech details:
SAM_3413 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg SAM_3414 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

Gun carriage details:
SAM_3412 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

I am not an artillery expert, so please us know if this combination of gun and carriage is correct.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more views of the 25-pdr on display at Schaarsbergen:

SAM_3421 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg SAM_3422 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

SAM_3415 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg SAM_3409 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

As far as I know, the draw bar elongation attachment was added to enable the 25-pdr to be used with the DAF YA-328 artillery tractor post-WW2:

SAM_3417 25-pdr Oranjekazerne Holland.jpg

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

how many Narrow MkII 's and MkIII's do you know of in Belgium and Holland ?

Rob,

I know of only two 25-pdr guns with the narrow carriage for sure:

1. Mk.2 carriage at the Frederikskazerne in The Hague, see pictures on page 1 of this thread;
   P1000880-resized.jpg
   
2. Mk.3 carriage at Schaarsbergen (of which I just posted the pictures).

If I recall correctly, I spotted another narrow carriage at the Dutch artillery museum at 't Harde.

Will keep my eyes peeled for any others I might come across.

HTH,
Hanno

[rnixartillery]

Excellent Hanno ,thanks for posting those. There is quite a variation between the surviving examples, the one you have photographed has a very early barrel and jacket minus Muzzle brake and counter balance so it would seem however the Guns came in....... the axles, shield and carriages were converted as is.
This gun also has a standard perch eye fitted and not the swivel type used in the modification.
All good info that builds a bigger picture !

Rob....................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

There is quite a variation between the surviving examples,

Rob,

Just edited my post above: rechecking the pictures of the one at The Hague, I found it is a Mk.2 carriage, even though the plate on it reads Mk.1 |L|.

650x433xP1000879-resized.JPG.pagespeed.ic.7L9PCsJYwg.jpg

Wrong plate? I cannot imagine a Mk.1 carriage being narrowed into a Mk.2.

Hanno

[rnixartillery]

I think we are getting there Hanno ,I know of Four in the UK for sure and possibly a fifth, four MkIII's and a MkII.

Rob...................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If I recall correctly, I spotted another narrow carriage at the Dutch artillery museum at 't Harde.

Knew I had seen it, even found the pictures I made 5 years ago. Note the gun tube without muzzle brake and the missing No. 22 platform.

HTH,
Hanno

P1030854_25-pdr_t-Harde.jpg P1030856_25-pdr_t-Harde.jpg

P1030852_25-pdr_t-Harde.jpg P1030855_25-pdr_t-Harde.jpg

P1030853_25-pdr_t-Harde.jpg

[lynx42]

Here is the plate from my Australian short 25pdr.

As found and after a clean up.

Short plate1.jpg short plate2.jpg

I recently obtained the towing end of the trail and a set of wheels and hubs. I am also to pick up a replacement saddle as mine is pretty rusted.

Regards Rick

[Mike Cecil]

I'm resurrecting this thread to inquire about the post by Centurion (Post 13) where in he states:

"A British version of the Australian baby 25 pdr was developed. Its main difference was that it could take the super charge (recoil system improved) This was the Mark IV gun. It had the same carriage as the Austraian baby Apparently only a very small number were made ..." (my bolding emphasis)

I am aware that the Brits developed an improved cylinder block (ie the buffer and recuperator) for the Short gun, but not that it ever went into production, hence the query. Did it actually go into production? Gander does not include it in his booklets on the 25 pdr, and he does manage to list some pretty obscure types/experiments, and I can find no reference to it anywhere else either.

Two other comments: First: two 25 pdr (Short) were sent to the UK: one during the war (and one to India, too), and one post war as a gift to the Firepower Museum by the RAA Museum.

Second: nomenclature plates on restored guns/display guns are notorious for being whatever was at hand, placed to fit the screw hole pattern. I've seen saddle ID plates on the cradle and nomenclature plates from one Mk of assembly stuck on another, different Mk. of the same assembly, so am always very dubious about believing what they show.

Very interesting thread - the images of the Mk.II and Mk.III carriage guns were fascinating with much more detail visible than I get to see in books. Neither carriage was used by Australia, though there is a single Mk.III carriage held by the RAA Museum, I understand. We'll just have to wait until the new museum is built at Pucka to see it.

Mike