Another (suspected) F22 found

[Tony Wheeler]

Interesting about the odd carrier Lauren, maybe post some pics and someone may recognize it.

I don't quite follow you on a few points here:

1. "The stirrup steps I'm pretty certain are a UK thing"

The problem is we've only seen two RH stirrup steps on the entire planet. One of them is on a full cab FAT which was DEFINITELY built in India. The other is on a full cab FAT which was CONTRACTED for India, namely yours. There's just no getting around that kind of evidence - that RH stirrup step has "FORD INDIA" stamped all over it!

Likewise the battery box location - that's standard Indian Pattern FAT practice. They either moved the passenger seat forward, or dispensed with it completely on some versions. Once again, the only other CMP we've found with a battery box located like yours is a full cab FAT supplied to India.

1965 Indo-Pakistan War (British Pathe ref. 3138.05).jpg RH stirrup step detail 1965 Indo-Pakistan War (British Pathe ref. 3138.05).jpg RH stirrup step detail F22 Lauren Child UK.jpg

2. "she would never have got to India (she was made at the point where the orders were getting diverted, and the suspicion is that's where the names of the channel islands on the cards come from)."

It seems to me we've placed rather too much emphasis on the late '45 diversion theory. This vehicle has been the subject of investigation for decades, but most discussion seems to revolve around the idea it was built in the UK, as suggested by the late Peter Ford: "Given what I now know, I'm strongly of the opinion that Brian's truck was a British Army assembly modified for their own purposes......One must assume that it was assembled in the UK, from parts, on Nov. 12th." In light of recent evidence however, including the contract cards, the photo above, and mounting evidence of Indian built vehicles in Australia, I believe we need to focus on the possibility it was built in India as contracted, and subsequently brought back with the British Army. I imagine they brought scores of vehicles back from India after WWII, invariably the newest ones. The question remains open, as Hanno wrote many years ago:

The following questions regarding the "F22" remain:

Where were these trucks built?

Fact is that Great Britain, Australia and India did receive a number of CKD (Complete Knock Down) kits. These were not complete vehicles built up in Canada and then disassembled to some extent to facilitate shipping, but kits of parts that were to be built in overseas factories with a high degree of local content. Thus, a number of local versions existed which might not all be listed in Canadian manuals.

Where and when were they used?


It's also worth noting that SM6389 is not a particularly late contract. A little earlier we have SM6337 with one recorded build date of 26 May 45, and somewhat later we have SM6537 with a build date of 4 Sep 45. Evidently this SM6389 chassis sat around for several months before being built on 12 Nov 45. That's not unusual, esp. for an export chassis. Here in Australia we see plenty of Nov 45 build dates, and we've seen build dates as late as 1947.

3. "She did go somewhere hot and dusty as she's got desert paint under the garage's yellow colour and on top of the SCC15. Maybe Palestine?"

I don't see why not Lauren - maybe direct from from Ford Bombay up the Suez with a British Army unit posted from India to Palestine? I imagine that would have made sense at the time, what with excess units in India and trouble brewing in Palestine. BTW what's SSC15?

4. "the chances of the garage owner getting mixed up and having procured two odd vehicles seem pretty remote."

I completely agree Lauren, but therein lies the problem! If both vehicles were SWB as we assume, and only one of them was an oddity, then the other one must have been F15A. The question then becomes - which body did the F15A have? By far the most likely answer is the GS body, which means your vehicle was the tanker.

I believe the chassis rails may hold the answer. If they're double skinned as Brian reported, and the auxiliary spring stops are riveted, it's hard to imagine it being anything but a Lorry 30cwt, 4x4, Water. However I don't think we should speculate before seeing the evidence. Can you post some pics of the chassis at some stage Lauren?

Cheers,
Tony

[Lauren Child]

Tony,

I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility, just that it doesn't tie in with what I'm being told on this side of the pond.

At the end of the war a number of contracts were used to supply the staging for the allied invasion of Japan and Japanese held territories. When the war ended unexpectedly the supply ships were diverted, and it took a while to halt production. The surplus of vehicles were then made available for other countries to rebuild, and the newer "oddball" models were at the front of the queue as the Commonwealth armies began to consolidate and re standardise their fleet (the mixed manufacture and model of vehicles being a logistics nightmare in peacetime).

Somehow my vehicle ended up in a British army surplus auction over here sometime later where the garage bought her, so she must have been missed from this process. That's not unusual given how complex the process was (and possibly because she was deployed somewhere when her compatriots were packaged up, that would tie in with just post-war use somewhere hot and sandy). Alternatively she was painted up post war but never used, possibly as part of the whole process (maybe a trials vehicle?).

SCC15 is the late war British (and some of the Commonwealth) camo colour. I understand from a different thread that Australian vehicles had different colour schemes. The desert colour on top is a post-war colour.

[RichCam]

I have been wondering about my Cab 13 Ford CMP. I thought it was an F15A - no data plates - in the 43 or 44 vintage but it has the 20" rims and some other components that are bigger than the standard F15A. Could it be a F22 based on the other pictures in this thread? What would I be looking for to identify it as an F22?
Thanks, Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by RichCam

I have been wondering about my Cab 13 Ford CMP. I thought it was an F15A - no data plates - in the 43 or 44 vintage but it has the 20" rims and some other components that are bigger than the standard F15A. Could it be a F22 based on the other pictures in this thread? What would I be looking for to identify it as an F22?

Richard,

Don't forget many many CMPs were rebuilt after the war and components were re-used over and over again. This means that your F15A could have been fitted with other axles, wheels, engines etc. after the originals wore out or when the owner converted his truck for other uses.

That said, please refer to my web-page http://www.geocities.ws/cmpvehicles/f22.html for the most comprehensive description of an "F22" (it wasn't an original designation) to date.
It basically was an FGT chassis without winch and a regular Cab 13 plus cargo box.

Please post some detail pictures of the chassis and axles so we can have a proper look.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Please post some detail pictures of the chassis and axles so we can have a proper look.

In particular we need to see the steering box and steering ends Richard. I recall this vehicle appearing on MLU some time ago, and I have a few saved images from that thread, but unfortunately none of them show these aspects.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

It seems to me we've been led astray here by the flimsiest of flimsy evidence, namely the word "Jersey" pencilled on the contract card. This vehicle has been the subject of speculation for decades, including by experts like Hanno and the late Peter Ford, and yet in all that time it seems no one has been willing to consider the possibility it was delivered to India. Why is that so? The reality is it was CONTRACTED to India, and even if some of those 350 chassis WERE diverted, why would we assume this was one of them? The fact that it turned up in the UK around 1960 means nothing. I imagine RA units brought back scores of vehicles from India after WWII, invariably the newest ones.

Not so much speculation: I try to base my research on period sources or well-researched and documented sources.

Regarding shipments, diversions and assembly: do you have access to Wheels & Tracks magazine? I would recommend the following issues to anyone who wants to get a good understanding about vehicle shipments and assembly across the globe during WW2:

PS: in fact ALL W&T CMP articles are worthwhile reading material for anyone interested in CMP vehicles

ISSUE No. 37 (October 1991)
CMP Assembly Overseas - Re-assembly of knocked-down Canadian Military Pattern vehicles.

ISSUE No. 38 (January 1992)
Trucks for Albania and Yugoslavia - Transport provided by UNRRA for relief work in 1945/46.

ISSUE No. 41 (October 1992)
India's Ford Wheeled Carriers - Canadian Ford Quad 4×4 chassis with Indian armoured hulls.
Wheeled Carriers, NZ Pattern - New Zealand version of Indian armoured carrier, narrated by Jeff Plowman.

ISSUE No. 55 (April 1996)
Canadian Disposals and Returns - Canada-Europe; some vehicles did it twice.
The Dutch Inheritance (1) - Deelen Demob Vehicle Park.
The Dutch Inheritance (2) - The Enschede Dump.
Holland's Vehicle Parks - Soesterberg: 1 VP, Stroe: 2 VP.

ISSUE No. 56 (July 1996)
Surplus MVs for UNRRA - Part 1: Transport for Albania, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Germany.

H.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Not so much speculation: I try to base my research on period sources or well-researched and documented sources.

Apologies Hanno, poor choice of wording on my part. I've amended "speculation" to "investigation". Your research is indeed extremely rigorous and entirely evidence based, with an admirable avoidance of jumping to conclusions. I've also done you quite an injustice in suggesting that "in all that time it seems no one has been willing to consider the possibility it was delivered to India." That's simply not true in your case, so I've amended the entire paragraph accordingly.

At this stage I don't have access to Wheels & Track mags so my CMP education is sadly lacking in many areas. In due course I hope to start a collection so I'll look out for the editions you mention.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

At this stage I don't have access to Wheels & Track mags so my CMP education is sadly lacking in many areas. In due course I hope to start a collection so I'll look out for the editions you mention.

I will try to scan the most relevant articles, will need to take the magazines out of their binders first.
Or else check out ebay, often people are offering their unwanted issues. Not expensive and well worth having an properly printed copy.

H.

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Or else check out ebay, often people are offering their unwanted issues. Not expensive and well worth having an properly printed copy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WHEELS-AND-T...item4d17fecace

Most copies available from this mob. Many other issues at varying prices from other vendors as well.

Regards Rick.

[Tony Wheeler]

Thanks very much Hanno and Rick. I've just emailed the seller requesting the issues you suggested Hanno. Don't worry about scanning the articles until I hear back from him.

Cheers,
Tony

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Thanks very much Hanno and Rick. I've just emailed the seller requesting the issues you suggested Hanno. Don't worry about scanning the articles until I hear back from him.

Tony,

At that price you you might as well consider buying ALL W&T's with CMP articles (click to follow link).

Rick, thanks for the heads up.

Hanno