Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

Thanks Tony I look forward to those Photos. I have that picture of the Stuarts on exercise and had a look at a copy down in canberra and couldn't say for certain if they had disruptive or not.

They look all green to me and other photos from the same time seem to confirm that. ...But why the Stuarts would miss out when the Grants did not is a mystery and why in all the photos of the grants heading north to Murgon there are no Stuarts is likewise a mystery.

This AWM shot of the 2/4 tanks entrained at Murgon on the way to the exercise doesn't help.

So where are we at?? The colours are standard but the painting is not??? That seems to be the case so far. Does this fit in with the order that gives latitude for colour selection according to location??

[Mrs Vampire]

Both 2/4 and 13th went to Bribie island.

The train had a derailment on the way this shot shows both the trucks and a Stuart on its side painted disruptive.

Its an AWM shot and says 2/4 but maybe its the 13th. The AWM caption says on the way from Murgon but the 13th war diary says the tanks were driven to Gympie because the rail line was considered to light for Tanks...

Maybe the 2/4 did entrain from Murgon and this it how the 13th new the line was too light . But if this photo is the 2/4 then it is evident at least some of the stuarts? were painted disruptive. The pattern on this one ( on the original photo enlarged) seems remarkably similar to mine.

Clearer than mud...but not much.

[Big D]

Hi Gina,

A real interesting thread and it is of interest to me as I start thinking about finalising the disruptive paint for my scout car.

The paint tablets at the AWM which are listed; can you confirm that the khaki green is second from the left and light stone is sixth from the right? They don't appear to be listed in the exact order they appear in the picture.

I don’t have a lot over here to compare the khaki green or light stone with so I am keen to get it as close as possible through means like this.

[Tony Wheeler]

You're right Darryl, the colours have been listed somewhat out of order by AWM. Also they've misspelled "slate grey" as "salt grey". I notice various inconsistencies exist in these tablets concerning the range of colours approved for use, owing to constant revision, however the colours of concern to us appear to be confirmed on the FGT8 door, with the tablets having been revised in respect of Khaki Green, which was darkened in late '42.

Standards Association of Australia. N.S.W. Camouflage Paints Committee. September 1942

11th. meeting of Committee, it was advised that the standard range of colours was to be amended as follows:-

1. Additions

Extra Dark Earth Ex T
Dark Grey (new colour) G
Warm Sand O

2. Modified

Khaki Green J To be darker.
Dark Green M Slightly darker.

3. Removed

Light Slate Grey B
Slate Grey C
Dark Grey D
Purple Grey E
Light Green H


Australian Emergency Standard No. (E)2K. 509-1943. January 1943

Revision of schedule first published in December 1941, and amended in February, 1942.

Six of the original colours have been omitted and three new colours added, while some of the original colours, notably Khaki Green, have been modified. These changes were based on twelve months experience in the use of the schedule in the field.

The standard colours for camouflaging paints shall have the letter designations and names given below:

Standard Designation Standard Name.
Letter.

A .. .. .. .. White
G .. .. .. .. Grey
H .. .. .. .. Light Green
J .. .. .. .. Khaki Green
L .. .. .. .. Scrub Green
M .. .. .. .. Dark Green
N .. .. .. .. Light Stone
O .. .. .. .. Warm Sand
P .. .. .. .. Light Brown
Q .. .. .. .. Darwin Stone
R .. .. .. .. Red
S .. .. .. .. Basalt Red
T .. .. .. .. Dark Earth
XT .. .. .. .. Extra Dark Earth
U .. .. .. .. Night Black
W .. .. .. .. Light Earth


FGT8 ARN 132257 - Copy.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Maybe the 2/4 did entrain from Murgon and this it how the 13th new the line was too light .

Yes I agree with that conclusion Gina. The series of 47 AWM photographs catalogued P01022 was donated by H. Jackson, presumably Hugh Jackson of 2/4th Armd Regt pictured below on the way to Murgon. It chronicles their epic drive through the bush from Wee Waa (Narrabri) to Murgon, initially attempted with tank transporters which became bogged, and the onward trip by rail to Caboolture, presumably to join the North Coast Line to Gympie. No doubt they got there eventually but the derailment would explain 13th Armd decision to drive direct to Gympie instead. It's an excellent photo essay and a fascinating insight into the difficulties of tank transport at the time.

Well done spotting camo on the overturned Stuart, it's good to have corroborating evidence of disruptive paintwork on Stuarts. Once again it's difficult to judge the colour, and comparison with the Cab 12 doesn't help because it's canvas.

Logically these 2/4th tanks would have received Light Earth disruptive, however this particular series of photos calls that into question, and certainly the Grant on the tank transporter appears to be Light Stone, freshly painted like the others it would seem. If so then perhaps it was a question of paint availability. This was a rather busy period for Armoured units, constantly on the move and preparing for possible deployment to NG, so there would have been limited opportunities to repaint vehicles, and they may have used whatever stocks were available at the particular location and time. Also the official change to Dark Green / Light Grey in November '42 would introduce further delay/disruption to supply. Not sure why Light Stone would be any more readily available, however it was certainly produced in far greater quantity than Light Earth, having been in use for a couple of years as opposed to three months, so perhaps there was residual stock in some of the Advanced Ordnance Depots. Ultimately it was a GOC decision, based on suitability for terrain, but it can't be assumed the currently approved colours were always readily available.

On the other hand the possibility exists that we are in fact seeing the currently approved scheme on these tanks, namely Dark Green / Light Grey. The vagaries of colour rendition in B&W processing make it difficult to rule out completely, and evidence of this scheme can be found as far away as Alice Springs in December '42.


P01022.003 NSW OR QLD, C. 1942. NO. 1 TROOP, C SQUADRON, 2-4TH ARMOURED REGIMENT, WITH GRANT M3.jpg

NSW OR QLD, C. 1942. NO. 1 TROOP, C SQUADRON, 2/4TH ARMOURED REGIMENT, PICTURED WITH A GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANK WHICH THEY WERE DRIVING FROM WEE WAA IN NSW TO MURGON IN QUEENSLAND. IDENTIFIED ARE, BACK ROW LEFT TO RIGHT: LIEUTENANT ALAN PROUSE; SERGEANT GIB STUPORT; UNKNOWN; UNKNOWN; GEORGE RICHARDSON; HUGH JACKSON; ALEC EVANS; ALAN ROBSON. FRONT ROW: JACK MCKAY, FRANK MORROW; JIM CHRISTOFF (BEHIND); DAVE WALLIS (FRONT); RON CLAXTON; REST UNKN0WN. (DONOR H. JACKSON)


P01022.005 NARRABRI, NSW, 1942. Loading Grant M3 tanks for transport to Qld. Owing to transpor.jpg

NARRABRI, NSW, 1942. AUSTRALIAN GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANKS BEING LOADED ONTO TRANSPORTERS FOR TRANSPORT TO QUEENSLAND. AFTER CONSIDERABLE TROUBLE WITH THE TRANSPORTS BOGGING AFTER HEAVY RAINS, THE TANKS THEMSELVES WERE DRIVEN MUCH OF THE WAY TO MURGON. (DONOR H. JACKSON)

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony that Grant Transporter photo sure looks a lot like my Stuart Green/Light stone pattern .

It is curious that the Stuarts never appear in these photos. A Sqn was Stuart so my guess is B and C were too heavy and A was not.

And there is a reverse shot of the colour plates Darryl but the writing is too small to read. I guess a visit and a look is in order.

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony

I attempted to rub back a spot as you suggested. I did not manage to get as clean a circle of colours as you have but your method gives me a better indication than my previous efforts.

so I have in order of layers.

Yellow etch primer
Grey primer
Factory applied British Dark Green
Australian applied 1942 Khaki green (J)
Light Stone (N)
Modern Australian Khaki ( Me)

The News for me is :
1 the etch primer same as aircraft etch so far as it looks.

2 That the Stuarts were not US lusterless Olive Drab on arrival in Australia they were British Dark Olive green .. Because they were a part of a US lend lease contract to the British and prepared to a British spec.
This makes the photos of the unshipping of the Stuarts more understandable. It also explains why My Stuart arrived in Australia with a British "T" number painted on it and not a US "W" number. It also explains why the weird shipping numbers and symbols do not gel with any information about US Units or shipping . I need to look to British information not American.

[Tony Wheeler]

Nice work on the paint layers Gina, your photo displays the full paint history well, with Khaki Green identifiable as post September '42. Photos like this are an important part of vehicle provenance and widely underused by restorers IMO. It's possible to achieve more clarity but it requires many hours of fiddly rubbing work to isolate the colours completely. I find the only way this can be done is by using folded pointy corners of wet and dry to achieve the necessary precision, which is even more difficult with highly uneven paint coats like the Light Stone on your Stuart. I did a lot of that kind of delicate work on the front shell and it reminded me of archaeologists using tiny paintbrushes to reveal fossils!

IMGP1791 - Copy - Copy.jpg

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Such photos also provide important evidence of general practice at the time, like the US Lend Lease factors you identify Gina. As such they can challenge our assumptions and go a long way to explaining wartime photographs as you say. I wonder if the Stuarts seen below were rushed into service in British green. It's possible they're seen after rainfall but even so they look way too dark for pre '42 Khaki Green.

0_2789000 State Library Vic.jpg


In due course I'll resume work on the FGT door to expose the required colours for matching. Unfortunately I got a bit carried away last time and removed too much paintwork, however there's plenty left to work with I believe. Ideally each coat needs to be exposed individually to provide maximum area for colour matching, and sealed with clear satin for colour rendition. Colours worth matching on this panel are pre '42 Khaki Green, Light Stone, and subject to confirmation post '42 Khaki Green and Light Earth. As such it will be a lengthy exercise but it's the only way to replicate these colours with full confidence. Hopefully it will be of use to others and can lead to standard formulations being established, which if confirmed by reference to WWII paint chips would be fully authoritative. This work has been done for modellers but does not translate usefully to volume supply. Ideally we can reach a point where WWII paint can simply be ordered, with paint matching a thing of the past. Hopefully my own efforts will be a step in that direction, to which end I'd welcome any suggestions/advice concerning suitable paint types and suppliers. I gather the general preference is for enamel rather than acrylic. Protec is one name that springs to mind and may be ideal for this project, given their association with current military paint supply.

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FGT8 ARN 132257.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

These pics show 3rd Armd tanks in Khaki Green / Light Earth camo, including a Stuart it would seem. Note the difference in bright sunlight, very similar to 2/4th Grant in the bush. Official timeline for this scheme was 28 July to 14 November, with Khaki Green darkened in September.

[Tanks from New Guinea] nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001330.jpg

17420_a014_a014001329.jpg

17420_a014_a014001327.jpg

P01022.043 NSW OR QLD, 1942. 2-4TH ARMD REGT GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANKS EN ROUTE TO MURGON QLD FOR .jpg