Pat 12 gets a nose job

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Your giving me some interesting things to think about with this which is making it into both an interesting test but a quest for more information. I'm rethinking my testing logic and data collection methods. One thing for sure next test will set the Go-Pro Camera to capture the engine instrument panel through the whole test. Need to move it closer to the instrument panel this next time, so the gauges are easy to read.

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At the end of your post you said " It would be interesting to set one up in a perspex tube instead of the housing, so it could be seen operating. It would also be interesting to have a delta gauge on the dashboard, I'm not sure what earthly use it would be but the same could be said of vacuum gauges"

Your comment about being able to see the thermostat in a prespex tube how about thisl
Clear View.bmp

Here is their web site https://coolviewthermostat.com/ not sure I want to spend that much for a single test but it would provide an interesting diagnostic tool. I just check and they have one that fits 216 https://coolviewthermostat.com/products/chevy-products/ and they have ones that fit the Ford Flat Head.

Here is the first round of data collection for this test
Test Data June 20 2014.JPG

I'm going to do one more engine flush on the radiator tomorrow then do another round of testing.

Bob, your thoughts on cleaning are running along with mine. I did back flush the radiator with it upside down but surely did not reach the flow rates my flow test (on the 261 at 1000RPM) showed of 20GPM. Had thought about mounting the radiator upside down running the engine but with no way of catching any trash that might come out decided that might be counter productive.

One of the things that running the engine from cold to full hot showed was the value of the coolant recovery tank over a Half Gallon of water goes out into the tank and is drawn back in as the engine cools.

Cheers Phil

PS In the 1990s worked on a couple of large Co-Gen setups for hospitals we were using 545 Cat engines which put out a lot of heat at full power, the system was recovering the heat from both exhaust and from the cooling systems and using the heat to heat the hospitals. As owners rep on the project part of my role was to make the various engineers and suppliers explain how the system and components worked. If they could not explain it they generally did really understand it themselves.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

I'm rethinking my testing logic and data collection methods.

Phil, I think what you're doing is fine. That's really good data you've collected, it tells the whole story when it's plotted. You can see the thermostat opening at t = 10, then the radiator works perfectly for the next 20 minutes at idle, but when you increase the revs the engine temp starts to soar, giving every impression it would boil if you continued. Perhaps you could let it go a few minutes longer next time and see if it boils. It can't hurt the motor provided you switch off immediately.

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There's only one improvement I can think of for this test regime, and that would be a coolant flow meter. It would be very useful to know what the flow rate is doing in response to RPM increase, because it would tell us if the radiator is partially blocked. The temp graph doesn't tell us much there, because although it shows a huge drop in delta when the revs increase, which indicates greatly increased flow rate, it doesn't mean a great deal if the baseline flow at idle is being restricted by the thermostat. We need to know absolute flow, not relative flow, and only a flow meter can tell us that. They're dirt cheap nowadays, eg $57 US for 1.5" diameter: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-...572166866.html


On the subject of flushing radiators, I recall using a kit back in the '70s which had a tyre valve on the hose fitting, the idea being to introduce a burst of air into the backflush flow to help dislodge particles. I don't know if it's still done that way but it makes sense to me. However I only used it in a servo for routine servicing, so I don't how effective it would be on a problem radiator. I haven't had much luck clearing blocked radiators over the years, despite using some very savage chemicals at times. Last year I put a whole bottle of phosphoric acid in a blitz radiator and left it for a month! It was bright green when I emptied it out but when I stuck it back in the truck it made no difference. You'd think by now there'd be a chemical on the market specifically designed to dissolve that brown stuff that clogs radiator tubes. Unfortunately it seems mankind has yet to come up with a way to unblock long skinny tubes except by poking things into them. In that respect we don't seem to have progressed beyond the monkey poking sticks into ant holes.

I was amused by the Coolview thermostat, I thought only someone like me would think of something so weird! I love it as a dress up item and it would be very instructive to see a thermostat working, however apart from that I don't really see the value. My query would be replacement thermostats, ie. do they sell the thermostat separately or do you have to buy a complete new unit.

Look forward to your next data set Phil.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Your graph came out giving more information than mine because of the way you ordered the data to be graphed. Did you have to type all this data back in because or did you capture from the picture? (Will add a photo of location of measurements)

Well this afternoon, did flush the radiator with radiator cleaner, because of the right angle filler neck you can not see in to see if it really cleaned. But what came out was nearly clear. The engine had been hot tanked when it was rebuilt so it was clean inside.

As to air burping radiator while flushing, yes I did this when back flushing the radiator upside down. Shop vac to what would be the in pipe water to the out pipe and a flex tube fed in through the drain cock hole with the engine upside down ran the water at full tap flow in and kept moving the flex tube in and out of the tank so that it would move the stream of bubbles around no crap came out.

Ran the engine for nearly an hour today. Air temp in the shop when I start was 80F/26C (hot day here) very quickly the shop air temp jumped to 90F/33C. Ran the engine for 30 minutes with the cleaner in then 30 minutes with drain out and cold tap water going into the top tank to make up what was coming out to clear the flushing agent out. Running the engine at 2000RPM it climbed to about 190F and on the water jacket sensors and about 205 on the top tank with IR gun, but no higher.

Interesting to watch the temp gauges with the engine not running but the blower fan still on the engine continues to circulate, thermosyphoning causing good circulation. (to insure some flow with the thermostat fully closed I have added an 1/8" hole to thermostat body.)

Was going to do more testing but by then I was pretty well cooked standing around in the hot air blast coming through the radiator.

Think the next step will be to finish the conversion of water pump from the low mount position to the high mount to match the original fan location.



More details on pump swap from doing it on the 261 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ifications.htm

Looking at these photos, it reminds me that I need to check the pulley sizes back to the original engine on the Pat 12 engine just to be sure that in the process of swapping out the original unusable 216 engine for the one that is in it now that I didn't in inadvertently mess up both the water pump and fan speed.

Ah the mysteries of CMPs.

Thanks everyone for taking time to read this thread and add thoughts and suggestions.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

Hi Phil

I haven't learned how to split posts on MLU so I'll have to do it manually:

re: Your graph came out giving more information than mine because of the way you ordered the data to be graphed. Did you have to type all this data back in because or did you capture from the picture?

Something else I haven't learned is how to use chart functions on MS Excel. I'm still using the old school method - graph paper! Other times I just use plain paper and construct my own axes, which means using a ruler to mark scales and plot data, but for presentation I do it on MS Paint, using the cursor pixel position instead of a ruler. It means using a calculator to convert figures to pixel position, but I'm pretty handy with a calculator so it's a very quick method, esp. with my scientific calculator which stores data. I've had it for 20 years and I'm always using it for something or other, in fact I rarely leave home without it! It's a bit tragic, but I'm one of those people with numbers rattling around inside my head all the time! I daresay you can relate to that Phil. Unfortunately though I don't have the patience or aptitude to learn computer programs, and unless I use them regularly I soon forget.


re: Running the engine at 2000RPM it climbed to about 190F and on the water jacket sensors and about 205 on the top tank with IR gun, but no higher.

That's very encouraging Phil, hopefully it will do the job on the road.


re: Interesting to watch the temp gauges with the engine not running but the blower fan still on the engine continues to circulate, thermosyphoning causing good circulation.

I hadn't realized you were running a constant speed blower fan, I had assumed the engine fan was fitted. That's why I was disturbed by the temperature spike at 1500 rpm. It's a good idea though as it allows you to load up the cooling system. If the fan was fitted it would just maintain a steady 170F, which doesn't tell you much.


re: I need to check the pulley sizes back to the original engine on the Pat 12 engine just to be sure that in the process of swapping out the original unusable 216 engine for the one that is in it now that I didn't in inadvertently mess up both the water pump and fan speed.

If the radiator is in good condition you may find you can get away with the larger pulley, which would be highly desirable in terms of fan noise. However I suspect it may overheat in summer, because it's reducing not one but two variables, ie. fan speed and water pump speed as you say. It would be an interesting experiment though.


re: If the radiator is big enough there will be a delta change and should be a delta. There is also the obviously, as Tony points out, a speed through the radiator at which fluid is moving to fast for heat exchange to take place.

As you say Phil there HAS to be a delta, and there always WILL be a delta. However, my reference to high coolant speed through the radiator core was not to suggest it's a bad thing, but merely to indicate the difficulty in measuring delta when the value is small. That's actually a GOOD thing. Believe it or not, the aim with radiators is to MINIMIZE the delta, which is done by MAXIMIZING the flow rate, so the coolant spends the LEAST possible time in the core. This is why our brain hurts when we try to get our head around cooling systems. It's entirely counter intuitive, because we've learned from everyday experience it takes time for hot water to cool down! However, it's the RATE of cooling we need to consider, because it needs to keep up with the RATE of heating in the motor. We need to forget about TEMPERATURE LOSS, and think about HEAT LOSS, which is a different thing altogether.

I'll try to elaborate in a separate post, or maybe even start a separate thread, as it's highly relevant to flatheads.

Cheers,
Tony

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Going old school on graphing the data makes it even more interesting.

Agree on splitting the thread to put the cooling system discussion in one thread and the rest of the nose job in another makes senses, will see if I can figure out how to do it.

Worked yesterday and hope to finish today the water pump conversion. The directions with the conversion plate spend a lot of time on the fan/water pump speed. When I did this conversion on the 261 I did run the engine on the test stand with big pulley on the crank and a small one water pump. That combination seriously over speeded the fan. Particularly with the 6 blade CMP fan, which when you cracked the throttle sounded like a plane, with a really strong prop wash. Air flow was so strong that it was sucking oil out of the oil breather. Was really concerned about the fan failing from being overspeeded so swapped the pulleys around from engine to engine to get the speed down.

Now out to work on the truck.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

I have a recorred 3 rows of tubes with the six blade fan..... no sheet metal yet except for the front fenders.

Not sure if I have the 216 I have the large 261 crank pulley front pulley but the engine maintains a steady 161.005 degrees F with the 160 thermostat. Double PH-8 spin on oil filters.

This Spring when we first took it out of storage is ran at about 900 rpm for nearly an hour to cook off any condensation then the oil was changed.

I drive it in the back field exclusively in low range ( t-case was changed to a 2 speed). Low range allows me to cycle/crash in all 4 gears when travelling on the paved road from the house driveway entrance to the back field lane.

On wide open throttle the heat damper on the exhaust manifold vibrates the little coil spring like crazy...need one of the antirattle spring..... the Carter YF carb sounds like a vacuum cleaner trying to suck tennis balls. Filling the bowl of the air filter with oil has toned down the sucking sound somewhat.

Never gets up above 161 F.

Cheers