Water in the oil

[Little Jo]

Hi gUYS

I was worried when I found water in my oil and also in the oil filter. So the first thing I did was drain the water out of the radiator and to my surprise it was clean and had no rust or oil in it. Then I drained the oil out of the sump and that was all milky so I knew it was contaminated with water.

Well I took the plunge and removed the head today and found the following:

1. The gasket seemed OK but when you pressed it water came from it.
2. Number 3 and 4 pistons had about 2 mm water on top of them
3. The thermostat looks like it will have to be replaced as the thermostat housing just disintegrated when I removed it.

I have attached some photos after I removed the head and before cleaning out the water on top of the pistons. Now do I just replace the head gasket and pray all is well or is there something else I should be looking at as well while it is at this stage.

Cheers

Tony

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Tony,
I would check the head for bow or irregularity with a straight edge and even if it appears alright, still get it refaced by a machine shop. It is common for the heads to warp. When you renew the gasket, re-torque after a short period. Torque figures are in the TM, they differ for nuts and studs.

The leak in to the cylinders could have come from the small hole between the two wet cylinders, not a lot of sealing surface there.

regards, Richard

[Little Jo]

Hi Richard

I spoke to my brother who is into classic car restorations and he suggested I give the head to him to take to his guy who machines/shaves heads and checks for cracks. I knew it was not good when I saw the water sitting on top of the number 4 Piston. Well the checks start now, but I have a gut feeling it won't be an easy fix.

Cheers

Tony

[Mike K]

Tony

When it comes time to assemble the head to the block , use a product called HYLOMAR on both sides of the head gasket. It comes in a aerosol can and is available at most auto stores . The paint on version is not as good for head gaskets as you need an even coat .

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, I would suggest it is time to;
1. descale the block.
2 shout it a valve grind, or you'll be back in there soon. the valves don't look that great. maybe it's the water?
3. give careful attention to the threads in the block.
Does it have bolts or studs. Myself, I would go for studs and nuts with hard washers.
If you had, and want to stick with bolts, I would consider a new set for the maximum contact area (which will help to prevent a thread being pulled in the block.
Do NOT be tempted to over torque it. You can go back and re torque it a few times. I recommend you do, but don't go over, on the torque.
A lot of the flathead V8 guys suggest not tapping the the block threads, at least not with a new tap, but rather with an old worn tap, or with an old head stud with a groove ground in it, so that it functions like a tap. The idea is to clean the threads, rather than cutting metal away. Is that clear enough?
Old flatheads need a bit of special care. They can be a bit temperamental. If you buy head studs they should come with a "bulge above the block thread that tends to stop water leaking up the stud, and out at the nut and washer.I would still apply a quality sealing compound to the studs when installing them in the block. The torque figure for installing a stud is quite low. Seek advice from your (older, caring) engine reconditioner.
Your old head gasket was (I assume) a copper asbestos one. The asbestos does absorb water.
The care Richard was talking about with regards the head, also applies to the top of the block. Use a straight edge and check your block length ways, and check there are no depressions at the thin bits between cylinders 1 and 2, and between 3 and 4.
A quality composition gasket might be a better bet, but as everything is a compromise, and it may come down to availability. your copper asbestos one was easy to remove, right?
Not wanting to be a doom and gloom merchant, but milky oil is the result of a lot of water in the oil. The jeep block is prone to cracking around the distributor boss. This is a possibility, I think more common in the Ford block. Check this out.
You may have a crack down low in one of your cylinders. Check.
Usually the compression pressure forces compression gases into the cooling system, and when the head gasket leak is bad, it blows the water out fast. The cooling system pressure is only 7? lb. Not much compared to combustion pressure. This is why I would check further. (if it was blowing the water out badly, it can let the water run into the cylinder when it's stopped, but usually the water blows from the radiator, before it gets bad enough to put a lot of water in the oil. This does also depend on where the gasket has failed.
Take your time to find the correct answers. Good luck!

[Little Jo]

Hi Mike and Lynn

Thank you for your good advice. I will not be rushing the job and will take your suggestions on board as I progress. As you guys have stated it might now be a good time to do those extra jobs.

I think the water leak is relatively new as when I checked the oil about a month ago it was OK and I have only taken the old girl out for a 20 kilometre spin once since then. I didn't notice anything strange as the old girl was purring along OK and there was no tell tale smoke from the exhaust.

The head had bolts and I was thinking of changing them to studs. The bolts still look OK and still have good threads, but I am not sure if they can be used again as I would not like to think I snapped one and had to go all through removing the head again and drilling out the shaft. So I think I will go slowly, and check everything as I go.

Cheers

Tony

[Keith Orpin]

Tony,
The correct pressurised cap for the radiator should be 4 lbs for the MB. ( Lynn questioned 7 lbs). Otherwise, I would take on board everything the guys have said.
Good Luck
Keith

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys.

Thanks Keith. I had replaced the radiator cap, but alas I did not check the pressure, I took the radiator guys word that it was OK for my Jeep.

I removed the head gasket, easiest job ever, I just lifted it off, I didn't need to prise it at all, there were a few tell tale signs where the water had seeped under it. This also matched the rust marks on the head. So as I suspect it may not have been leaking for long, I hope so. I removed the spark plugs and only number 4 spark plug looked like it had been in contact with water. The work continues.

Cheers

Tony

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Tony,
Just had another small thought. It sounds like you did'nt have problems with over heating, how ever, at this stage I would change your thermostat for one that is fully open at 74 Degrees centigrade (which equates to 180 Degrees fareinheit).
Keep us posted
Keith ( from a very wet and windy UK)

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Keith Orpin

Hi Tony,
Just had another small thought. It sounds like you did'nt have problems with over heating, how ever, at this stage I would change your thermostat for one that is fully open at 74 Degrees centigrade (which equates to 180 Degrees fareinheit).
Keep us posted
Keith ( from a very wet and windy UK)

Hi Keith

I have been able to source a new head gasket, thermostat and thermostat retainer. So I will replace it all with new stuff, I have also decided to replace the head bolts with studs, which is an extra cost but I think well worth it. I will pick up all the parts tomorrow and today I will drop off the head for a shave. I thought I might as well do it all whilst I have it all stripped down.

I do have a question though, I have always used rainwater in the radiator and I was wondering if I can use the Green Coolant used in modern cars in my old 1942 engine and if so would that be a benefit or should I stick to using rainwater.

Cheers

Tony

[Grant Bowker]

If you are ever likely to see freezing temperatures, I suggest anti freeze.
It doesn't need to be anything fancy, no need for exotic "aluminum safe" or "multi-metal galvanic corosion prevention" as it's all pretty much cast iron and brass that got along just fine on lowtech versions. An ethylene glycol based antifreeze giving lowered freeze point and some anti-corrosion should be enough. But I would stay away from the old-time concoctions (wood alcohol, salt, honey etc.)
A side benefit is that antifeeze/coolant usually also raises the boiling point.

[Little Jo]

Hi Grant

That is some good advice. But where I live in the country here in South Australia, Man I would die if we had freezing temperatures and I would never leave the house. I feel for you guys in Canada and Europe at the moment, it is 22 degrees here today and that is cold for this time of the year. So I guess I can leave out the anti freeze in my jeep.

Cheers

Tony

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, A corrosion inhibitor prevents the build up of rust inside the block head etc.(assuming it is clean to start with) this then allows an efficient transfer of heat to the water, and away to the air at the radiator. The inhibitors do require careful sealing as they are inclined to leak more easily than plain water.
Keep in mind that 90+ percent of engine failures stem from cooling system problems. Does your engine have steel core ( or frost,or expansion) plugs? Is it worth trying to prevent any further internal corrosion of your block or head etc. from what you say the tin plated retainer for your thermostat had rotted away, so the inside of your block must also be slowly corroding. All that stuff helps to block up your radiator(don't forget to flush it, from top and bottom)
Yes I would recommend an inhibitor. An anti freeze type usually should be replaced yearly, whereas something like Fuchs engine coolant(German brand) might outlast you. (you mix it 50% with your rain water)

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Tony, A corrosion inhibitor prevents the build up of rust inside the block head etc.(assuming it is clean to start with) this then allows an efficient transfer of heat to the water, and away to the air at the radiator. The inhibitors do require careful sealing as they are inclined to leak more easily than plain water.
Keep in mind that 90+ percent of engine failures stem from cooling system problems. Does your engine have steel core ( or frost,or expansion) plugs? Is it worth trying to prevent any further internal corrosion of your block or head etc. from what you say the tin plated retainer for your thermostat had rotted away, so the inside of your block must also be slowly corroding. All that stuff helps to block up your radiator(don't forget to flush it, from top and bottom)
Yes I would recommend an inhibitor. An anti freeze type usually should be replaced yearly, whereas something like Fuchs engine coolant(German brand) might outlast you. (you mix it 50% with your rain water)

Hi Lynn

From what I am being told it is a good idea to use a corrosion inhibitor. One of our club members came around this morning and I showed him the stripped down head. He also suggested using an inhibitor and said as there were so many types in use to speak to Repco and they can advise what would be good inhibitor for the old girl.

I had the radiator rebuild 18 months ago and when I drained it before removing the head the water was still clear and clean, I will flush it doing the top and bottom before putting in the new thermostat and retainer. I know that when I filled the radiator it always seemed to find it's own level in the top tank after a drive.

I hope that after the head is shaved and all is back together I have solved the problem, but if there is still water in the oil after that then It means the engine coming out and stripping it down to find the leak. When my club friend had a look at the old gasket and head he suggested the head may not have been torqued down properly. Geez I hope that is all it was as if it is the block then I will be off the road for some time. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for all you good advice and suggestions.

Cheers

Tony

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Three of the reasons I have always heard for using a 50/50 mix of antifreeze are:

1. Freeze protection down something like -35C even then it doesn't freeze like water hard but instead the water starts to separate out as ice crystals making a mush which doesn't pump through the engine very well.
2. Rust inhibitor, which depending on your local water can be very important in preventing rust. In the US even rain water may be acetic particularly in the North East.
3. Higher boiling point a 50/50 mix of antifreeze even in a non-pressurized system has a significantly higher boiling point than just plain water. Going to one of the company data sheets they list boiling point as being 107C (226F)
   and freeze point as -37C (-34F) for 50/50 mix.

On one occasion when setting up a new engine 261cu.in. for my C60S I didn't use antifreeze or rust inhibitor while I was testing the engine and had significant rust damage to the water pump adapter plate in a very short period of time. Rust pitted the plate to the point that it had to be replaced because of a weeper leak in the sealing surface. Lesson learned now I always use either rust inhibitor or antifreeze any time I fill a cooling system.


I have also seen the difference in cooling once when having a cooling problem on my Pat 12 C60L as I blew water out of the system because of overheating and replaced it on the move with a pressure pump putting water back into the system the overheating kept getting worse and worse as the antifreeze in the engine was gradually replaced by plain water.


Cheers Phil

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

Three of the reasons I have always heard for using a 50/50 mix of antifreeze are:

1. Freeze protection down something like -35C even then it doesn't freeze like water hard but instead the water starts to separate out as ice crystals making a mush which doesn't pump through the engine very well.
2. Rust inhibitor, which depending on your local water can be very important in preventing rust. In the US even rain water may be acetic particularly in the North East.
3. Higher boiling point a 50/50 mix of antifreeze even in a non-pressurized system has a significantly higher boiling point than just plain water. Going to one of the company data sheets they list boiling point as being 107C (226F)
   and freeze point as -37C (-34F) for 50/50 mix.

On one occasion when setting up a new engine 261cu.in. for my C60S I didn't use antifreeze or rust inhibitor while I was testing the engine and had significant rust damage to the water pump adapter plate in a very short period of time. Rust pitted the plate to the point that it had to be replaced because of a weeper leak in the sealing surface. Lesson learned now I always use either rust inhibitor or antifreeze any time I fill a cooling system.


I have also seen the difference in cooling once when having a cooling problem on my Pat 12 C60L as I blew water out of the system because of overheating and replaced it on the move with a pressure pump putting water back into the system the overheating kept getting worse and worse as the antifreeze in the engine was gradually replaced by plain water.


Cheers Phil

Hi Phil

I am so grateful for the terrific information and assistance I am receiving from fellow MLU members. You guys have helped this poor novice since joining the forum 3 years ago when I started my Jeep restoration project. By following your advice I have gained the confidence to now tackle any problem that arises. The wealth of experience you guys have comes, I am sure from having been through similar happenings along the way. I will follow your advice to the letter, how can I go wrong.

Thanks. Phil, Lynn, Grant, Keith, Mike and Richard for your support and assistance.

Cheers

Tony

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

Well I am ready to fit the Cylinder Head back on. So far I have replaced the old Thermostat with a new one and a new retainer. I have also replaced the original bolts with new studs. (See Photos). I had a look at my new cylinder Head Gasket, which is sealed and Silver in colour. It is a 17446.01 Gasket head -L-head type. There is a printed note in 3 languages inside which state.

CAUTION
* The surface of this head gasket has been treated with a coating for better sealability.
* DO NOT use any chemicals or sealers. It must be installed dry.

I have not come across this before as everyone is telling me to spray a copper coating sealant on the metal side before replacing the head. My Question is, do I follow the enclosed instructions that came with the Head gasket, or do I go ahead with the copper spray sealant. Have any of you guys out there in MLU land come across a similar scenario.

PHOTOS.
1. Prepared head ready to put back on.
2. Cleaned up top of the block showing new Studs.

I do want to do the right thing and have no more leaks. Thanks guys.

Cheers

Tony

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Tony,
These modern material gaskets do seal like the proverbial sh*t to blanket once they are installed and applying any extra sealer may compromise their abilities. Providing block and head surfaces are good and head is tightened correctly and retightened after a run, then all will be good. I always tighten down a head in small increments, that way it is goes down steadily.
I fitted a pattern head gasket to my brother's Willys MB about 25 years ago, and it was made in Brazil, I was sceptical as it was a modern type, but in fact it was the best jeep gasket I had ever come across and still fitted.

My thoughts ....

regards, Richard

[Lynn Eades]

I see it like Richard. Follow the manufactures advice. See how you go.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Did you happen to test and exercise the new thermostat by chance before putting it in? If not probably will be OK. But I have found over the last 10 years that many NEW thermostats are very slow to open the first couple of heat cycles which on a freshly rebuilt engine can be problem it the temp comes up real quick. It is real annoying to blow water out of the radiator on the first start just because the thermostat stuck the first time, leaves you chasing a problem that by they maybe gone.

The other thing I have found that the first time they open they may actually not open until 20 degrees F past their stated value. After they have been cycled a couple of times they seem to settle down and work correctly.

I test/exercise them by putting pan of hot water and bring them up to the rated temp or until they open. Then take them out of the water and let them cool doing this a couple of times seems to do the trick. The ones I've done this too the difference on how much quicker they respond after a few cycles is very evident.

Of course when ever I put a bunch of thermostats in the pot, my wife asks what I'm fixing for lunch.

Cheers Phil

PS Know I've mentioned this before but every time I buy a thermostat it is slow to open the first time.

[Little Jo]

Hi Richard, Lynn and Phil

I appreciate your advice and will do as suggested and go by the manufacturers instructions. Phil. I tested the thermostat in my wife's saucepan and watched it open and close. But unlike you, I am a coward and did not do it until my wife was out of the house and in the garden.

Cheers

Tony

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

I wish to report that my problem with water in the oil is now solved. A mate came over to give me some moral support to start her up for the first time. It took a few turns to get the fuel into the carby before she fired up.

We have just come back from a nice 20 minute drive and I report that the old girl is purring like a kitten, I am so relieved. I ended up replacing the head gasket, had the head shaved, new thermostat, new plugs and replaced the original head bolts with studs.

In the morning when she is cold I will re torque the head and change the oil again and install the new oil filter. I then propose taking her for a spin to Mt Barker and back a round trip of about 60 Klm's. That should settle everything back as it should be.

Thanks to all you MLU chaps for your advice and suggestions which I followed to the letter.

Cheers

Tony

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Nice to hear the operation was a success and the patient survived and is doing well. Closing the loop is good information for the next person who has the same problem.

Cheers Phil