Littlefield Collection & Auction

[Ian Pullen]

Seems the Littlefield Collection is packing up & moving to a Museum in Massachusetts so it can be more accessible to the public. To fund this though, 160 of the 240 vehicles will be auctioned off.
I can see the Bellfield auction all over again but ten times the frenzy & ten times the prices.
No guesses I think as to what WON"T be offered for sale.

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...hinesmove.html

[matilda IIA]

I think Mr Littlefield would be upset by this action....

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

The Littlefield collection is going to the Collings Foundation in Stow, Massachusetts which already has a collection of Aircraft, as to being accessible to the public they will have to make major infrastructure changes make it possible for the public to get to the museum. Local grapevine is saying the power behind the foundation would like to make it more accessible but the location is basically land locked and would need new roads built.

Though the Foundation's aircraft have a very extensive airshow schedule the actual museum is only open to the public 3-4 days a month 5 months of the year, by invitation. Basically it is no more accessible to the public than the Littlefield Collection was in California.

Cheers Phil

[Andrew]

This makes me wonder what deals have been made to get them and why they are being moved.

On a side note, how did Littlefield get his millions?

Andy

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

the actual museum is only open to the public 3-4 days a month 5 months of the year, by invitation. Basically it is no more accessible to the public than the Littlefield Collection was in California.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Andy

I've heard exactly how he got his start but can not remember the product, but it was in early days of electronics in the Boston area. Over the next couple of months I'll probably hear more, as some of the people involved in moving the collection are long time Military Vehicle people in the New England area.

Problem with the museums location is it on basically a narrow residential road.

Cheers Phil

[Rillette]

Mr. Littlefield was born into wealth. His great-grandfather having founded the Utah Construction Co., which helped build the Hoover and Grand Coulee dams. His father oversaw a 1976 merger with General Electric Co. that made him a member of the Forbes 400 Richest People in America.

From:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...95854437558427

Cheers,
FX Dutoy

[Chuck Anderson]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

The Littlefield collection is going to the Collings Foundation in Stow, Massachusetts which already has a collection of Aircraft, as to being accessible to the public they will have to make major infrastructure changes make it possible for the public to get to the museum. Local grapevine is saying the power behind the foundation would like to make it more accessible but the location is basically land locked and would need new roads built.

Though the Foundation's aircraft have a very extensive airshow schedule the actual museum is only open to the public 3-4 days a month 5 months of the year, by invitation. Basically it is no more accessible to the public than the Littlefield Collection was in California.

Cheers Phil

It might be a little more accessible in one regard. The high-end neighborhood where Jaques had his home & collection wasn't designed for business traffic, let alone moving multi-ton armored vehicles up and down the narrow streets. They would have to close down the streets on moving day. I know the neighbors won't be sorry to see it all go (once its over, that is).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Andrew

This makes me wonder what deals have been made to get them and why they are being moved.

Isn't this the classic case of the family getting rid of the "junk that dad collected"? Not wanting to sound harsh, but often when an avid collector passes away the family gets rid of the collection because they have no interest in it or simply need money.....

H.

[Dianaa]

I guess the one good thing is that dad's stuff isn't going to the scrappers and some people with an interest may be able to buy one of the vehicles at auction.

It seems to me that very few vehicle museums keep the vehicles on the road, like many aircraft museums do, so our only hope is the few places like Bovington or private entusiasts who get them out to display.

[Ed Storey]

We know where the vehicles are going, but what happened to his staff of about a half-dozen or so people who worked on the AFVs and kept them running?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Ed

Strange that was my first thought as well, I had seen a program on the restoration process and was impressed with restoration team.

But as I have heard someone from the New England end of tank restoration has gotten the contract to go out and get all of the tanks running and prepare for shipping the ones which are coming to Collings Foundation. I suspect that the Littlefield restoration team has already gone elsewhere. The move process will take place over the next two years as Collings Foundation plan to build a new facility, the question is will it be next to the existing facility or in a more accessible location.

Cheers Phil

[George McKenzie]

I have a large collection of machines ,over 150 and am no spring chicken any more So what to do ? My family don't want it .Museums aren't a safe place to keep thing together as they can be sold too .I guess that makes more toys for the boys

[Duane Leiker]

Because the vehicles are excellently restored and coming from the Littlefield Collection, the vast majority of us wouldn't be able to afford the cheapest vehicle offered.

I feel it truly disgusting that a family who has never had an interest in their Dads collection is allowed to profit from it. Believe me, they are profiting in this or wouldn't do it. Yep, you can choose your friends but not family.

Lastly, what happens (if) the Collings Foundation can't come up with the $10mil. needed to house these restored vehicles? Will they be left outside? Some of these vehicles are worth more than the WWII aircraft they have.

I have prepared for this and am giving all my vehicles and "stuff" to my youngest son who is the only family member to take interest in them and the Military Vehicle hobby.

[Ed Storey]

Anyone with a collection of anything regardless of the size or value will have the problem of finding a home for it after the person who built the collection wants/needs to move it on. Family members, other collectors or museums are great places to pass this material on to; and even if those people or institutions are keen to look after the collection, there is never a guarantee that they will look after it once they gain possession or the people/organization who get it after them.

We are only caretakers of this material for a short time, so in the end I think a collection owner has to be happy with whoever gets the collection and sit back and think that at least they looked after or preserved it while they had it.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Ed hit the nail squarely on the head with his finial line:

"We are only caretakers of this material for a short time, so in the end I think a collection owner has to be happy with whoever gets the collection and sit back and think that at least they looked after or preserved it while they had it."

Having worked with non-profit organizations and foundation for most of my working life, I know where to look up and review the financials of US non-profit organizations. I've read through the Collings Foundations returns and they seem to be the real deal with some real financial strength both in the foundation and behind it. So there is hope that the collection or major parts will be preserved.

But going back to Ed's point each collector/museum can only try to do the best while they posses the collection.

Cheers Phil

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't have a problem with it.

All of the family members have over $100 million EACH. Any money they might get from this sale is chump change to them. Even if they do profit from the sale, why is that bothersome? People profit (and suffer) all the time from their parent's or grandparent's life choices. Jaques himself benefitted from his grandfather's work, whether Jaques was interested in it or not, and there's where he got all of the money to put the collection together. The Foundation is the "owner" of the vast majority of the vehicles & parts. Jaques had some in his name, but not too much. The Foundation is a non-profit and is required to pass its assets to another non-profit. Any income would go into the non-profit and not to the family. Add to that the expense that Jaques put into each vehicle. The vehicle was his passion, not the cost. I don't know what the end result is, but from a family position, its a write-off.

We as collectors all benefit (and suffer) from the the involvement of the Jaques Littlefields of the world. Whenever Jaques was looking for something, prices around the world would increase. People in would dig up or scrounge up vehicles and/or parts because a billionaire was looking for them. That helps us by bringing a lot of rare stuff onto the market and hurts us in that the prices went way up when we wanted a vehicle or parts. Then again, it caused the market values to increase making everybody's MVs worth more. Now that the "big fish" are dissapearing (Littlefield, Gibb, Budge, Ropkey, Wheatcroft isn't buying much) the money isn't flowing like it use to.

There a quite a few of us that are getting up there in years and before too long the market will be flooded with MVs. The question is what will they be going for? Is there a new generation that cares enough about them to spend that kind of money on them? If Collings is going to auction off over 100 of the vehicles, I wonder how much they'll command? I was stunned last December at the auction in Indiana. Maybe there's a new wave of millionaires that love this stuff.

This is why I don't gamble.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Anyone with a collection of anything regardless of the size or value will have the problem of finding a home for it after the person who built the collection wants/needs to move it on. ...

And Ed should know. He collects Canadian militaria and webbing.

[Duane Leiker]

I don't know where you come up with a non profit to non profit only asset transfer. This is what I found in the non profit corporate codes and is not verbatim. Do I have the wrong codes???

A non profit does not have to liquidate its assets to another non profit. If the non profit board votes (75%+ shareholders) to auction or sell, it can for the benefit of the non profit. Also, if the non profit files "dissolution", it can liquidate assets in auction or sell assets to anyone or organization to cover debts.

I have seen other non profits auction material off and felt the statement strange. **** I am NOT trying to get into a pis-ing contest or create ill feelings with anyone. **** I felt the statement incorrect and looked it up. This is what I found. Thats all.

[Chuck Anderson]

Sorry if I'm wrong or speaking out of ignorance.

When I started a 501c3 non-profit here in Oregon, the Corporation Division required a 501c3 non-profit corporation upon dissolution, to donate its assets, either cash or hard assets, to another 501c3. Hard assets could be sold (to pretty much anyone) to pay creditors, but none of the of the proceeding cash or other assets were to benefit the directors or officers of the dissolving 501c3.

Perhaps its different now (this was 20 years ago), and/or different in various states and the Fed.

Also, since mine is a Mutual Benefit 501c3 versus a Foundation, perhaps the rules are different in that regard as well.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

We maybe getting to technical about non-profits for the purpose of this thread.

When I mention having checked out the Collings Foundation it was meant as reassurance that they are in fact a real non-profit with some strength.

I don't think any of us are questioning the transfer of assets from one non-profit to another. In fact I think we are all saying that it looks like one good Foundation to another.

The whole issue of what museums do and can do with their collections probably deserves a separate thread. It is as pointed out a question us collectors should be aware of.

If anyone would like to know how to actually check out a US non-profit drop me a private message and I'll send you the link and explain a little how to read the material, it is all public information.

Cheers Phil

[matilda IIA]

Auctions America will be conducting the auction of the Littlefield Collection 11/12 JUL 14.

http://www.auctionsamerica.com/event...?SaleCode=LC14

[Mike Cecil]

That's just great! Four days before W&P starts, and right after Duxford! Scratches my attendance....

Mike C

[Robin Craig]

Best part is that the vultures will be there as it is a no reserve auction.

The viewing days will be packed i'm sure

R

[daninnm]

They must distribute assets to other 501C3 orgs or charities but they can sell assets during the liquidation to whomever they wish and at whatever (wink wink) price the board sets. Collings foundation is OK...but sure wish they would,have put those vehicles in a museum in the MIDWEST for greater accessability.....Taxechusetts sure is not the right place with the anti-gun attitudes. Don't think they can even have DDs there and lots of Jacques stuff was live.

Heard that the 'sell' vehicles are being given 'cosmetic' restorations to drive up the price...not the restoration that his team would have done.

Lots of speculation about prices....most of the good US armor is going east....anyone want a Scub missle & carrier. Kool on some levels but what historic interest does it have in the USA? Brit stuff may go well - Canadians and UKers will want that stuff.... German stuff will all go east. The prices on the few vehicles that are marked with ranges for private treaty sales are inflated in some instances and low in others....for instance, the Grant at $350K is high since there is another for sales for $275K in the states....

To raise $10,000,000 from the 106 vehicles they now say they are selling (not the number is not 160)....the auction website talks about 106 or 108 that's about $100k each.....CHEAP...some things will be very cheap; others - who knows? Europe is not loaded with free cash...second dip of their recession is undeerway; here? Guess the Texans and North Dakotans can be buyers!!! That's where all the dough is!

I'm going as a spectator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim Burrill]

I was on the phone last night to a fellow from NJ who was out helping with the Littlefield collection.

I asked him about the status of the cannon in some of them.

He said that the BATF had been out there to take stock of what was live. And the word he left me with was that all the vehicles with live guns will have the weapons torch cut to de-mil them before the auction.

He said the auction house is not prepared to become involved int he BATF paperwork to have the guns transferable in any way.

And they won't hold the vehicles after the auction to wait for the DD or class III papers to clear.

Cut them so BATF won't hold up the sale, then hold the auction, collect the money, and go to the next auction.

I could sort of see the issues with Class III, but the breeches and barrels on all the AFVs could be legally registered given the chance.

Damn sad thing.

[lssah2025]

Typical waste of good products, they will also see a major decrease in value!!! Also if you read the fine print, payment is to be made within 24 hours after the auction, how in the blank is someone suppose to do that, come back with a suitcase full of cash, most overseas transactions can take days, now they are going to demil per BATF, well that is great, so barrels cut, for no reasons, breeches cut and god knows what else, maybe they will decide to put holes in the armor knowing the fffnnn idiots that are in office now. Ohhh and how stupid it keeps getting, I don't know the last time someone took their 57mm down to the bank and opened it up, or drove their tank and fired live rounds into a crowd.

[rob love]

But if it saves just one life, it will all be worth it. Thank God somebody is thinking of the children.

[jdmcm]

Well it sure wont do much for the value of the vehicles to have them hacked up like that

[lssah2025]

Well they will probably torch the barrels, and high pressure areas, destroy the breech blocks and might cut the breech rings. When barrels are 5-10K, breeches 5-10K and breech rings depending on price, this is a pretty good chunk of money if someone wants to make them live again or try and source the correct bits and bobs. We will see.

[horsa]

Same people doing the auction as last falls sale in Indiana where they dumped vehicles from the old Victory Museum collection they had acquired. They started cutting things up the day before the sale when a few potential buyers said it was very questionable for them to sell some of the items direct with no federal papers. They really didn't advertise the demill so I'd wondered about issues with proxy bidders who submitted based on the on-line photos/descriptions. Would be pretty pissed buying a complete item, prepared to do ATF docs, and then find out they butchered it with a torch.

They have more prep time if they have already made the call to demill so likely items will be described properly when the final catalog is done.