Wanted: 30cal. 1919 or parts to build one non functional

[Casey B]

I know it's a stretch but have to ask.
I was in the states and there were so many good examples of replicas as well as de mil'd types but well you know jail food and my stomach are not compatable.
So if there are variuos parts that I can aquire to build a decent example to mount on my 1953 M38A1 Jeep with Z arm that would be well unrealisticlly awsome!
No need for a barrel, a steel rod would work as long as the end of the cooling sleeve was there....?

thanks Casey

[Harry Moon]

Try an airsoft GPMG.

[rob love]

Welcome to the inane Canadian firearms system Casey. To be legal, you will require that the receiver be an original M1919 receiver. It could be debated that the receiver in this case is the right sideplate, or it could be the entire assembly of the trunnion, right and left sideplates, top plate and bottom plate. And when you have those (or arguably the right sideplate) and they are not yet permanently welded or altered you are in possession of a unregistered prohibited firearm.

If you don't have an original receiver, then it's a replica. And to make a replica in Canada....well it's prohibited. And if you do manage to get a replica, then you have to transport it as if it were a restricted gun, and store it as if it is a restricted gun.

Only option is to find either a deactivated M1919 or even a live or converted auto M1919 and get the legal owner to deliver it to a licensed gunsmith who does deactivation. Expect to pay (minimum) in the neighborhood of $3000 plus for an example. And that will be without any accessories.

There are some non-restricted semi auto M1919s kicking around Canada (lucky me...I have one) But the price on those has reached about the same or more than the Jeep is worth. There are a bunch of M37s (a tank version of the M1919) currently being imported into Canada by a very slow boat. Expected retail on those is currently at $5200.

Good luck in your search.

[Little Jo]

HI Casey

I was able to acquire a genuine .30 body minus the barrel. Photo one. It had been buried for many years and once I had it sandblasted you could make out the serial numbers. Photo two. I had my lawyer take it up with our state police firearms branch and they gave me an answer in writing that as there were no moving parts or genuine barrel I could display it on my Jeep at any time without a permit. Photo three. I later contacted the Firearms branch regarding converting it to gas firing and I was advised as it could not actually fire a projectile I did not need to register it or need a permit. Photo four. This makes things much easier when involved in any re enactment shows.

Cheers

Tony

[Andrew]

Robs right on. I hunted for years a deact 50 bmg. It took me almost 3 years and im about $3500 into it. That's cheap Im told, but hey whats a halftrack without a 50? They dont look right without one

[rob love]

Tony: Very nice....a Colt. That name always commands a premium whether it is on a M1919 or on a 50 cal. Even on an AR15 it still commands top money for that class of gun.

Andrew's experience finding a 50 cal sounds like he is in exactly the right ballpark price wise. Fiftys are actually easier to find at present than are M1919s here in Canada. They can usually be had by a simple phone call.....not so for the M1919.

Harry's advise about the airsoft is also a good one. Just make sure the airsoft shoots a projectile above 366 feet per second, otherwise it is technically a replica. At that threshold and higher, it is a non-controlled firearm (no license or registration) as long as the pellet does not exceed 500 fps AND has 5.7 joules of force...whatever that is..

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

Tony: Very nice....a Colt. That name always commands a premium whether it is on a M1919 or on a 50 cal. Even on an AR15 it still commands top money for that class of gun.

Andrew's experience finding a 50 cal sounds like he is in exactly the right ballpark price wise. Fiftys are actually easier to find at present than are M1919s here in Canada. They can usually be had by a simple phone call.....not so for the M1919.

Harry's advise about the airsoft is also a good one. Just make sure the airsoft shoots a projectile above 366 feet per second, otherwise it is technically a replica. At that threshold and higher, it is a non-controlled firearm (no license or registration) as long as the pellet does not exceed 500 fps AND has 5.7 joules of force...whatever that is..

And just as single shot conversions of full auto's were prohibited in 1993, if 'airsoft' catches on (and they make some fine reproductions of historic firearms) I can see new legislation on the horizon.

BTW there's a guy selling a dewat 50 cal M2HB, tripod and T&E for $5000. Not sold yet...

[Robin Craig]

I have to say that I was quite amused at the simplicity of the solution fielded by a local chap in Ottawa, whose name escapes me.

He has a jeep with a rear pedestal, so he has a plywood outline of the weapon of choice and it is covered with a a nice green cover.

Looks like there is a gun under it and none of the aggravation.

R

[Barry Churcher]

A friend and I were discussing this very topic as he has a toy Thompson with the toy company name on the side. As he is a bonified full auto collector he didn't want to take any chances with the toy so he called registation in New Brunswick. The snitty lady on the phone explained that the toy was illegal and would have to be destroyed. Not really believing this and having questions he contacted the RCMP in Ottawa and here is the response. I will post half now and the other half later.

This information sheet describes how the Firearms Act and Criminal
Code apply to replica firearms.

A replica firearm is a device that is not a real firearm, but that was designed to look exactly or almost exactly like a real firearm.
Replica firearms are prohibited devices in Canada .

Antique firearms, as defined by the Criminal Code and corresponding
regulations, are not prohibited.

Some devices resemble real firearms in many ways, but are made of clear or brightly coloured plastic, or have significant dimensional differences. Many of these devices need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. As a general rule, however, devices significantly smaller or larger than the real version are not classified as replica firearms.

Airsoft guns are devices that have a low muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, and usually discharge projectiles made out of a substance such as plastic or wax rather than metal. Some airsoft guns, resembling with near precision an existing make and model of a firearm, are replica firearms and therefore prohibited devices. Advice as to whether or not a particular make and model of airsoft/pellet gun would be considered a replica can be obtained by contacting the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP).

Possessing or Acquiring Replica Firearms
Individuals may keep any replicas that they owned on December 1, 1998. A licence is not required to possess a replica firearm, and it does not have to be registered. However, individuals cannot acquire, make or import a replica firearm. If a replica firearm is taken out of Canada , it cannot be brought back in. Businesses may possess, acquire or import replica firearms only if they have a valid Firearms Business Licence that allows them to possess prohibited devices for an approved purpose.

[Barry Churcher]

Lending or Borrowing Replica Firearms

A replica firearm cannot be sold or given to an individual or an unlicensed business. However, a replica firearm can be loaned to:
a person who borrows it specifically to fulfill their duties or employment in a motion picture, television, video or theatrical or
publishing activities; or a certified instructor who wants to use it to teach the Canadian Firearms Safety Course or the Canadian Restricted Firearm Safety Course. The specific requirements pertaining to such things as record keeping, notification and storage requirements can be found in the Special Authority to Possess Regulations (Firearms Act) (SAP).

Use of Replica Firearms in Crimes

When used to commit a crime, replica firearms are included in the broader Criminal Code definition of "imitation firearms". There is a mandatory minimum penalty of one year in prison if an imitation firearm is used to commit, to attempt to commit, or during flight after
committing, a serious criminal offence, such as kidnapping, robbery or sexual assault. This sentence must be added on to the sentence for
the main offence.

Storing and Transporting Replica Firearms

Replica firearms should be stored and transported carefully to keep them out of the hands of someone who might misuse them. If a replica firearm is borrowed under the terms of the SAP Regulations, it must be stored in a sturdy, securely locked container, vault, safe or room that cannot be broken open or into easily. There are no specific requirements for personal use of replicas, but the law requires dividuals to exercise reasonable caution for the safety of otherpersons.
If replicas are being transported, they must be locked in the vehicle’s trunk or in a similar lockable compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk or compartment in which the replica can be locked, the replica must be put out of sight inside the vehicle and the vehicle must be locked. If shipping a replica firearm, it must be sent via a carrier that is licensed to transport prohibited devices. The CFP has a list of eligible carrier companies. Replica firearms being shipped by licensed carrier must be packed in a sturdy, non-transparent container that cannot be broken into easily and that is not likely to break open accidentally. Businesses that are licensed to possess prohibited devices for an approved purpose must store and transport these and other prohibited devices in accordance with the Storage, Display and Transportation of Firearms and Other Weapons by Businesses Regulations.

Information

Information on importing a device that is not a prohibited replica is available from the Canada Border Services Agency at 1-800-461-9999.
For more information, contact the CFP. This fact sheet is intended to provide general information only. For legal references, please refer to the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act and their corresponding regulations. Provincial, territorial and municipal laws, regulations and policies may also apply.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Thanks Barry, it's silly but that is the law as it is here in Canada. I suppose banning lifelike 1:1 scale model kits of .357 revolvers they sold in the past might arguably make some sense. But not being able to get a soft metal or fiberglass Browning for a vehicle restoration is nuts.

The only additional thing that surprised me was the prohibition of airsoft that looks substantially like a real firearm. I can't argue with the wording above but do know a lot of airsoft owners who have accurate versions and think they are perfectly OK. Even Princess auto sells some accurate examples. I'm not sure what's going on in this regard because what I'm seeing isn't matching up with what you've posted.

[rob love]

WRT the airsoft, that is where the threshold of 366+ fps comes in. That is the speed that the firearms lab has determined can cause serious bodily harm, and is therefore legal to have without controls.

Re the transportation of replicas, note that the transportation requirements are actually greater for a replica than the requirements for a real gun. You can have a real rifle (non-restricted) in the front seat with you, the only requirement being that it is unloaded.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

WRT the airsoft, that is where the threshold of 366+ fps comes in. That is the speed that the firearms lab has determined can cause serious bodily harm, and is therefore legal to have without controls.

Re the transportation of replicas, note that the transportation requirements are actually greater for a replica than the requirements for a real gun. You can have a real rifle (non-restricted) in the front seat with you, the only requirement being that it is unloaded.

How then doe this make sense?

"Some airsoft guns, resembling with near precision an existing make and model of a firearm, are replica firearms and therefore prohibited devices."

It looks to me like airsoft is getting more and more into lifelike versions. Their website has wood and metal service rifles patterned exactly after things like Kar 98's, Stens and M1 carbines. But I also see that they have a page for Canada permitted items and these are not on it. It follows therefore that they are not legal here and the RCMP quote makes sense.

Sort of.

What is available in Canada are lifelike metal M-16's. So why is an airsoft M16 OK but not a Kar98?

[cletrac (RIP)]

If a person has a homemade lifelike replica, who's to say if he had it before 1998 or not? I'd say they were all built before 1998.

[Lynn Eades]

What am absolutely charming piece of legislation. When was common sense murdered in Canada? That's just sad. I doubt that your (below?) average politicians would understand those laws. How is the public supposed to follow them?
I took this little line from another forum;

"A democracy is two wolves and a sheep,voting on what's for supper".

It makes understanding how we arrived at where we are, easier.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

When was common sense murdered in Canada?

I'm going to expose my politics here...but it started was when we elected Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister. If that's not bad enough we now have his idiot love child son as leader of the Liberal party with a fair chance of becoming our next leader. That's gonna hurt.

[Lynn Eades]

Sorry Bruce. My volley is directed more at the mass of badly worded (and thought out) laws that various governments have dumped on us.
Have you ever thought about how good those old (and more simple) law were?
Back then, I think the people drafting them, had a good grip of the language.
As far as home is concerned, I think there are far more laws on the books that have been put there since 1980, than existed before then.
Have a nice day Bruce

Derailed? What rails?

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

As mentioned earlier I sought legal advice for my .30 Cal via my Lawyer to the SA Firearms Branch. The advice I received in writing, that I am OK in South Australia. However I should add that this is not the same case in every state of Australia as the law varies dramatically from state to state, as restorers will attest too when going to Corowa for the annual get together. The inference being that "If it looks like a gun, then it must be a gun".

A member of our club has decided to purchase a complete Resin .50 Cal from the USA from International Antique Weapons to mount on a pedestal on his Jeep. He sought advice from the SA Firearms Branch and was told they were not interested as it was a toy...!!! and he would not need a permit or register it as a replica. The only time police Firearms Branch would require to see and register a replica was if it had "Any moving parts". He also contacted Australian Customs and was told he could import it into SA without any problems as it was a toy. This was a bit of a surprise. However as I stated earlier, the legislation varies in every state of Australia. I would not dream of taking my .30 Cal outside of my state.

Cheers

Tony

[motto]

Hi Tony.

Has this fellow wanting to import the resin .50 Cal 'toy' actually done so? I hope he has such assurance in writing but I doubt it.

Australian Customs are notorious for giving off the cuff answers to enquiries that are worthless when it comes to the crunch because so much discretion is given to the individual officer. Strike the right bloke and all's well. Strike the wrong bloke and you are in deep, deep do doos because they've got the power.

Also on the topic of 'weapons'. Whilst at Corowa this year I heard a story out of SA that a Jeep owner had been ordered by a member of the police force to remove the axe from his vehicle and not to carry it in future. Is this fact or furphy?

David

[Lynn Eades]

Behind all the "policy" is the "law"

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by motto

Hi Tony.

Has this fellow wanting to import the resin .50 Cal 'toy' actually done so? I hope he has such assurance in writing but I doubt it.

Australian Customs are notorious for giving off the cuff answers to enquiries that are worthless when it comes to the crunch because so much discretion is given to the individual officer. Strike the right bloke and all's well. Strike the wrong bloke and you are in deep, deep do doos because they've got the power.

Also on the topic of 'weapons'. Whilst at Corowa this year I heard a story out of SA that a Jeep owner had been ordered by a member of the police force to remove the axe from his vehicle and not to carry it in future. Is this fact or furphy?
David

Hi David

No mate he reported to us that he rang the Customs people.. I always like things in writing, that's why I used a solicitor and I keep a copy of the Firearms Branch reply in the Jeep glove box.

As for the axe report, I haven't heard that one, though I would not be surprised as most of the young police officers wouldn't have a clue, I believe we would win that one though as it part of the vehicle kit, hell how many of us country folk carry items that could be miss interpreted, I suppose tradesmen's tools such as hammers, screwdrivers and pinch bars are next. We live in strange times.

Cheers

Tony