MV Tooth Extraction, at Weare Rally - Transmission Problems

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Title caught your eye? Well it was not my tooth that needed extraction but BEAUTY my 1942 Pattern 13 C60S that just had a tooth extraction. On the way to our MV Clubs 26th Annual Summer Rally, BEAUTY developed a new load ticking or tapping sound when I down shifted down into 3rd gear. This was a new sound as I had the truck out the previous weekend for an antique car show and had not noticed any noise, could feel a little vibration as well in the gear shift lever. As the truck was all loaded and had the generator in tow with every thing I needed for the week at the Rally I did the brave or stupid thing and kept going and just didn’t use 3rd gear. Having learned to not try and fix things when tired or hot and definitely to not go taking things apart until thinking through the problem, I parked the truck were it would could sit for the week of the Rally next to the registration tent and went home to come back in the morning with my HUP.

In the morning when I got back I had a plan of attack:

• First confirm that the noise/problem was only present 3rd gear. Quick drive around the field confirmed that.
• Drain the transmission through a filter to check for partials. Did this with the improvised funnel with a paint filter and a magnet. Very little in the way of metal or any kind of dirt in the gear oil. Gear oil was last changed 4 years ago when I changed engines. (Plastic liquor bottles make handy disposable funnels)
• Inserted one of those extendable magnet wands through the drain plug hole and Extracted One Gear Tooth. No other debris came out, which was a good thing.
• Removed the PTO side cover plate to look for damage. Up until this point I figured I three options if everything was OK, plan A accept for 3rd gear I’d just clean out the case replace the gasket, PTO cover and refill the transmission and drive home at the end of the Rally not using 3rd gear. Or plan B go home remove the transmission from my other truck and do a field replacement of the transmission. Plan C was go home on a wrecker hook.
• It turned out that the tooth had broken off 3rd gear of the lower cluster and luckily just dropped to the bottom of the transmission with out doing any other damage. So went with Plan A

The trip home was uneventful in fact it turned out that I drove most of the way only using 2nd and 4th gears. What is strange is I think I actually got better gas mileage coming home than driving over.

Returning home I loaded more of the gear for “camping” and the rally in to the HUP than it had coming to the Rally and it actually seamed much happier, smoother riding, and quieter with a full load of gear than running empty.

I’ll be posting more information on the Rally in the near future and will post the link to photos and videos here on MLU.


Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

How much time was needed to empty the vodka bottle to make a funnel ????

Very lucky indeed that the broken piece did not get flung aorund the innard of the tranny...... warm weather.... light oil.... heavy chunk just sank to the bottom.

Is there any way to check for such failure....possible cracks..... when doing a rebuild....... or maybe yours was just one of those bad Friday afternoon assembly.....chance in a million.

Bob

[Lynn Eades]

The failure looks fresh enough. Maybe just bad heat treatment and 70 years of use.
Phill, is the whole cluster junk, or does it press apart?

[Ganmain Tony]

It looks very, very clean inside the gearbox and the everything looks to be in great shape (apart from the broken tooth on third)... a credit to your maintenance Phil.

Noticed from your photo's the front drive shaft is obviously installed. You don't leave it out for driving on sealed roads?

As a general rule we do down under, mainly for less wear and tear. May also help with fuel mileage (but if I worried about that, I wouldn't own a 1941 truck)..

[Bob Carriere]

.....will help you out if you need one or two.......

Bob C.

[lssah2025]

That sucks believe me.... Well I will see you your tooth and raise you multiple teeth.. Pics from the transfer case to the front drive of my HSC.. Looks like the previous squaddie couldn't shift it into AWD...

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the comments and questions:

Bob emptying the vodka bottle was part of the anesthesia for the extraction. As to checking the rest of the transmission for cracks as a preventive, I'm going to check into having all the gears magnifluxed but only if I can get replacement parts. If I can't replace them do I really want to know there are invisible cracks.

Lynn the third gear as several of the gears on the lower cluster are press on gear with pins, I've found a 3rd gear NOS replacement but need to check that it has the same number of teeth. According to one source Chevy had two different sets of ratios for this 4 speed box. My preference is to replace the entire lower cluster if I can find one.

Tony yes I have left the front drive shaft in, need it to be able to move the truck in and out of the shop in the winter on snow or to even drive the thing on wet grass with out tearing up the grass till the lugs on the tire get a grip on the dirt. I tried driving it years ago without the shaft in and it doesn't seem to make any difference in fuel efficiency, but I did get it stuck.

Bob, will let you know if I can't find one down here thanks for the offer.

Lance, from the looks of the teeth it looks like it was a Gorilla using his feet to shift the box, were you able to find replacement gears for the HSC?

Next step is to start cross referencing gear box part numbers CMP parts book, to Mapleleaf parts book, to Chevy US parts book. I'll be giving the source I found NOS upper shaft 5 years ago and see if I can luck out again.

Took me 2 hours 15 minutes to have the transmission out of the truck and apart on the bench. I suspect that was the easy part of the job.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

You should point out that you work alone.......

....take your time...... the time allowed in the GM book is probably 3 or 4 hours...... at $105 an hour.

Let me know if you need anything.

Bob C

Lance......
...on the destruction of the transfer case.....based on experience M 37 Dodge the only time you would have that much damage is if the transfer case jumped out of gear while under a heavy load/torque. Trying to shift into gear while moving at high speed is almost impossible with straight cut gears..... it will grind a lot and small chips may break loose but rarely engage enough to really strip a series of gears.

God ... and Phil... only knows how finicky the 4x4 linkage adjustment can be on a CMP and how body flex can undo careful adjustments.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Noticed from your photo's the front drive shaft is obviously installed. You don't leave it out for driving on sealed roads?

As a general rule we do down under, mainly for less wear and tear. May also help with fuel mileage (but if I worried about that, I wouldn't own a 1941 truck)..

Hi Tony,
Removing front propshaft will make little difference to fuel economy as the front wheels are still rotating the drive shafts and diff in the front axle, this is where the drag occurs. Unless someone can produce a free wheeling hub, there is no practical solution unless you are prepared to remove the front drive shafts.

regards, Richard

[lssah2025]

Phil, yes my transmission and transfer case were rebuilt and other gears were sourced. That was last year that they were replaced. But I definitely feel for you. Almost having a complete restoration and then finding out about the darn toofeshhesss royally sucked. Had to take off the floor plates and rebuild everything so I think yours is probably easier to replace then mine was. As for the Humber it is usually in rear wheel drive and then only the front are engaged for off road traction. So someone probably jammed it into awd without knowing what they were doing. Bob, that is what I was worried about having all the little teeth and fragments come into contact with the other gears and viola they all get screwed.

[Lynn Eades]

Lance, I'm with Bob. It looks like she was only part way in mesh, or had walked (its self) out of full mesh under load. Did you find anything else wrong at the time?

[lssah2025]

No everything else looked pretty good might have had some water in the case over the years had some pitting but all the bearings, seals and gaskets were replaced so she purrs now, the throw out bearing was also replaced so the entire drive line, electrical, mechanical and pretty much front to back was restored and replaced.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Bob, I can't afford $105 per hour rate that's why I work so fast. Plus over the years I've worked out a couple of tricks for removing and installing the transmission. Biggest trick is this one a slide rail that goes between the windshield frame member to the back of the cab with a chain fall to lower and raise the transmission. (Picture shows it in use on the HUP) This same slide rail is also useful when installing the engine and transmission to support the rear of engine as you slide it in.

I'm starting my parts hunt today so Ill let you know how I make out.

The picture below is one that the guys in the club took of the process of pumping 3 quarts of lube back into the transmission, it takes 175 pumps per quart. Yes, I get kidded about the surplus Red Cross lab coat and rubber gloves.



Link to 2013 Weare Rally Photos and video http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Wi...?sort=3&page=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26CLeqxabig


Cheers Phi

[Bob Carriere]

....don't you have a show on TV????

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Progress report, I've got the gear box all apart and everything else looks good. On the parts hunt so far I have found a source of multiple 3rd gears NOS $60 each which could be put on to the old lower cluster it would require press the unit apart and pressing the new gear on. In talking with that source they may have an NOS transmission the whole thing $1200 they are checking to see if they still have it. From another source I found two used transmissions that look fair to good $125 each.

The NOS transmission if it is really available I think is my preference though I will buy a replacement gear for the original box anyway so that it is a complete ready to use unit. With three trucks all sharing the same box having a spare would mean I probably will never have transmission problems again.

Once as this thread has turned out to be more about the transmission and less about the Rally, once I can figure out how to do it I'll move the thread over to the Restoration heading.

Cheers Phil

[lssah2025]

Always good to have spares, one box for three, sounds like the way to go!!

[Grant Bowker]

The original scale of spares lists transmissions at 4 per 100 vehicles per 12 months so on first glance the plan of 1 spare for 3 trucks seems a bit cautious. On the other hand, what good is less than a complete transmission if the plan is to be able to replace the assembly?
Another way to look at is that you are going to hold an 8 year stock (if my math is good) on a scale designed for service driving, use and abuse....... and much longer on your kinder driving, lower mileage and better maintainance program. You should be good for life.

[Lynn Eades]

Grant, Phil is scaling, based on a 25 year projection.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

When I started the thread I thought it would be more about the show and less about broken transmission teeth. But the search for new parts has been quite enlightening. So I requested that it be moved to the Restoration Forum.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

As of this afternoon a NOS Transmission is being shipped to me from Tim Tygarts http://www.obschevy.com/ of Nashville, Georgia USA. What is a bit strange is that the transmission was purchased by them with a lot of other Chevy parts probably 20 years ago. From the other photos it has only very light surface rust. They had to build a shipping crated to ship it so it will be interesting to see when it arrives.

This transmission was not listed in their online catalog in talking with the people down there they have a lot of parts which they have only a couple of which they do not list. So if you are looking for a particular part it may be worth contacting them. I have found them to very responsive to both phone and e-mails. Yes they do know how and are willing to ship overseas, though they did add the comment that shipping cost out side US or Canada often exceed the cost of the parts.

As I mentioned earlier I also found two used transmissions at Jim Carters http://www.oldchevytrucks.com/ both of them have the same casting numbers as Chevy CMPs. But again they were not listed in their catalog or web site it took contacting them with part numbers and specific request. They likewise were very responsive getting back to me within 24 hours with photos.

I will be posting more detail on this on my web site near future.

Who was it that had a broken transmission case a couple of years ago? Did you find a replacement?

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

Just wondering if all the old ones you found at Jimmy's and the NOS one..... could they have different gear ration.......??? CMPs being rather unusual.

Was down for the Lobstawh festival in Maine..... a shame to drive by within 30 miles of your place and not have the time to stop in Temple.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

As the NOS and one of the others have the same open drive shaft rear out put housing I suspect that they will be the same gear ratio as the CMP because the open rear drive shaft was used on the bigger trucks and the closed torque tube drive shaft on the smaller trucks. I'm trying to find which gear ratios actually were different as offered by GM at the time. Know that 3rd is one of the gears the was different because most parts sources are specific about the number of teeth my CMP is 33 teeth on third gear, well more exactly it is 32 and 1/4 teeth.

One tip I have heard for telling the different lower clusters apart is that the big truck lower cluster has two groves machined in to the shaft see photo. I have not found how to determine which gears goes with what on the upper cluster.

One bit of information about both Jim Carter Parts and Obsolete Chevy they both will ship world wide I asked and they confirmed.

As to being in New Hampshire and not stopping by we would loved to see you and Joyce. But it would have added at least another 3 hours to your driving time plus however long we would have spent catching up. Just catching up could take a couple of days. Maybe next time we could plan a stop over. I'll take a picture of the view from the quest room and send it. Tell Joyce we have owls.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

NOS transmission left Nashville, GA in a crate weight 131LBS arrived 4 days later in New Hampshire weight 85LBS and minus the crate. UPS can't explain what happened to the crate. Picture of how I found it sitting by the shop.

Transmission was insured for the full value/cost $1200.00 so I don't think UPS would have accepted it wrapped in plastic. Seller is annoyed because they spent the time and effort and charged me for it to build a crate. Had I been home when it was left by UPS I would have raised a stink right then. On the back of the shipping shipping label which had been incorporated into the plastic wrapping you could see the imprint of the wood it had been pealed off of.

Spent the day disassembling and cleaning the transmission, had to completely disassemble it to clean all the bearing which had been coated in a cosmoline type preservative when the transmission had been built. Oh what a joy to actually work on a New Transmission though. Kerosene and Gunk followed by washing in 180F water and the transmission is now clean inside and out. Had to clean the bearings so I could check the run out of the shafts.

My big concern was and is the input shaft (see photo) as it is only part that could be be damaged easily by dropping the transmission. Checking the Chevy heavy truck manual it gives run out or out of true "note more than .004 inch" when I checked the shaft on the new transmission it measures .010-.012 with dial indicator. All of it is in the first inch the part goes into the pilot bearing of the flywheel. One from the old transmission reads +/-.001" measuring it the same way. Only bearing that is not 100% smooth is the front input shaft bearing. The front bearing retainer that the throw out bearing assembly rides in and out is perfectly true.

I think UPS owes me the cost of new input shaft and bearing, if Obsolete Parts can supply a new shaft and bearing I would rather just replace this one instead of having to install it in the truck to see if the clutch disengages and correctly. Your thoughts?

Bob the gear ratios are all the same on the NOS transmission all the gear tooth counts match between the transmissions. Today I received the replacement 3rd gear so I should get through this with a NOS trans in the truck and a good repaired one on the shelf.

Cheers Phil

PS- Obsolete Parts is being really good to work with. The transmission originally came from a large surplus or parts dealer in the Toronto area some twenty years ago, no one remembers the name other than they are gone now.

[David Dunlop]

Sounds like your transmission may have come out of LEVY'S in Toronto originally. Too bad about the service you got from UPS. I have heard a growing number of complaints about them up this way over the past six or seven years. Mostly on a very disorganized customer service department and a feeling that behind the scenes, their left hand no longer seems to know what their right hand is doing anymore.

Good luck with the rebuild project. At the end of it you will have a happy running truck and a very reassuring spare, if ever needed again.

Cheers for now, David

[Bob Carriere]

Hard to explain how a transmission properly crated could accidentally wind up wrapped in plastic.... UPS should be responsible to both you and the seller.

Bob C

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

In my normal try to do something once and get it right the transmission is cleaned painted, ready to install and tomorrow I'll put it in and connect it all all up and hopefully have a truck back on the road.

As said earlier I completely disassembled the transmission to clean the dried out grease out of the bearings and inspect all the bearings. Once the transmission was all assembled sealed up all the opening and shaft and put it into the blast cabinet to soda blast the for paint.

Of course had to stop to build a blasting cabinet, something I had been meaning to do. Nice to clean something and not have blast media all over the place.

Once the transmission was nice and cleaned washed it down with really hot water (170F) and primed and painted it. Transmission is now hanging under the truck ready to be hoisted into position in the morning.

Pictures and report on success or failure tomorrow, I hope.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Don't forget to include photos of the new blasting cabinet and the media used.

Did you ever figure out were the crate went??

Bob C

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

As the old movie said "It's Alive". Finished installing the NOS transmission this morning and took it for a short drive. This transmission is much, much quieter than the one it replace probably the quietest of the three now. Only problem with that is the truck now has lots of new noises or more likely ones I could never hear before over the noise of the transmission.

Took it for couple miles then brought it back to the shop so could check for leaks, etc. This weekend will take it for a real drive. Shifting is still very stiff the detent balls are still hard to get out of the notches. Guess I'll just have to drive it to get it loosened up.

Little bit of gear whine in reverse and 1st, much less in 2nd and 3rd and totally silent in 4th.

As removing things like transmissions always goes faster than installing it took me about 3 hours to get the transmission out on the bench and 4-6 hours to get it from the bench to back installed in the truck. Because I did a couple of things in the wrong order and had to back track it probably took me 2 hours longer than it should. While the whole process, in particular what I did in the wrong order was fresh in my mind I sat down and wrote it all up 30 steps removing and about the same installing. Will add them to my web site with pictures at some point.

To your question Bob about prototype blasting cabinet, I'll post some pictures and design comments soon, think I'll start a separate thread for that. Blasting media for now is sodium bicarbonate wanted something that would take of paint and dirt but not damage the steel. Primarily for the Lincoln restoration. My problem with the standard commercial cabinets is they are too small. I wanted something big prototype is 48"x32"x32". But the big issue was I wanted 100% containment of the the dust.

UPS is playing dumb about the crate, when I called them the response was well sometimes we'll remove a crate and repackage if we can't get it on the truck. I think this is double speak for when we bust the crate we pretend it never had a crate and hope you don't notice. Which is kinda dumb on insured packages, you think they try and claim it was poorly packaged.

By the way Jim Tygart's Obsolete Chevy Parts has been great to deal with even sent me an extra set of transmission gaskets as I was disassembling the unit. The Gasket Set is from an outfit called Bestgasket.com though they don't sell direct they sell through companies like Obsolete. What is kind of interesting is that both sets of gaskets that Obsolete sent me are dated Jul-13 so they are freshly made. Bestgasket site has a link to where to buy. Quick look at what they carry and it looks like they maybe a good resource. One thing I like is they make there own gaskets with Made in the USA on the package.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well today got back to working in the shop, and the project was to press apart the lower cluster to replace the gear with broken tooth. I had some real concern about how difficult it was going to be to press off the 3 different gears and spacers on the lower cluster. There is nothing in any of my manuals about replacing these gears, yet it must have been common because I have found NOS individual replacement gears. The gears appeared to be a press fit on the cluster shaft with 4 pins running down the shaft in groves, with each of the gears having matching groves. My fear had been that these gears were shrunk onto the shaft.

To make the discription to follow here is the exploded parts view.


The first photo shows my simple bearing press unit nothing fancy I've used it for years and because it works never have gotten around to replacing it with a real bearing press. The big surprise was that the Counter Shaft Drive Gear (the first to be removed) came off with relatively little force. As each gear and spacer was removed I marked it with order of position. The rest of the gears came off as equally well with no extreme pressure from the little jack needed, in fact pressure was so light that it didn't even mark the wooden blocks.

What became obvious once I started to reassemble was that I should have marked all the gear as to which way they faced. As (all but one of) the gears have a beveled in the direction they engage, the other side being flat cut. Of course started off by putting on the wrong way around (2nd photo. Back to the house to print out a photo of the cluster I'd taken earlier on this photo I added ARROWS showing the correct direction for the gears (3rd photo).

Back to reassembly, the gears are not a hand fit but when heated 200F they are very nearly a drop on fit. (4th photo) Used old electric fry pan and IR Gun to heat all the gears to 200F then with a pair of thick gloves it was out of the frying pan and on to the shaft.

So replacing gears on the lower cluster turns out to be no big deal.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

....some oil I the pan, not to keep them from sticking to the pan, might have helped (more ?) heat transfer.

You sure cook a good story.

Bob