Centurion photos

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

I will gladly defer to your obvious familiarity with the Centurion, but if I may I would like to play the Devil's Advocate for just a minute. Further to the first photo, I had to crop it down to fit into the window. The actual photo is 1600px and shows an entire squadron of tanks aboard the train. None of the other barrels are visible, but the camouflage pattern of the vehicles suggests that the photo was taken after the July, 1965, changeover to 105mm L7 guns. For that reason I can't understand why there would be any 20-pdr armed tanks still being used.

The second photo is dated 1970, but I'll admit that the lack of a camouflage paint job on the tank makes the probable photograph date much earlier.

Again, thanks for the new information in your reply. If you don't mind, I still have some more bone questions to ask about the Centurion.

Where Type B barrels created from Type A's as a refit at a workshop or depot, or were Type A's and Type B's produced as such at the factory?

I had always thought, obviously in error, that the exterior of the 20-pdr and 105mm barrel was the same (Type A or B), and that it was only the interior sleeve that needed to be changed to increase the bore by 21mm. Wrong again?

I have a couple of other questions that I have never been able to find an answer to, that I would be embarrassed to ask on an open forum. May I contact you via email for an answer?

Cheers,
Dan

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Dan,

Yes, please PM me if you wish.

To answer your questions and queries, the closest tank is armed with a 20-pdr: no 'ifs' or 'buts'. Besides the fume extractor being a 20pdr type (and with the counterweight welded along the top), the mantlet is not fitted with a .50 cal Ranging Machine Gun as were most Mks of Cent fitted with the L7 (the exception is the Brit Mk.6).

As to the change over date, like most changeovers, it took time. In the case of the Canadian Army, Dingwall states that not all were changed to the 107mm L7 tank gun anyway. Is this/are these Canadian images? Both Mk.5 (and Mk5/1) with 20pdr and Mk.11 with 105mm were in service at the same time until the Centurion fleet was finally withdrawn from service in the 1970s. So it would be possible to have both on a train somewhere, I suppose.

The Type A was not converted to Type B. Type A production stopped when Type B production started. I believe Type C was the conversion of Type A to using a fume extractor, but as Type C were never used in Australia, I have not investigated this aspect in detail .

The 105mm L7 does not have a type letter: it came in only one configuration with the eccentric fume extractor. These were all new production barrels. They do fit the 20-pdr breech block. Except for the breech fit portion, I believe the L7 is a slightly larger external diameter at any given point than the 20pdr Type B barrel, and are also larger than the same given point on a Type A barrel (based on a comparison of 105mm L7 fitted to Leopard AS1 and type B barrels fitted to Centurion Mk.5/1).

Regards

Mike C

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

Again, your knowledge overwhelms me. I've been doing some further research into the Canadian use of the Centurion in Germany, particularly concerning the dates of when changes were made. The only conclusion at which I've been able to arrive is that there is no documented evidence giving these details. Most information is based on best-guesses made from available photographic evidence. And yes, 20-pdrs and L7's could be found being used at the same time.

I've also been able to identify where and when the earlier photograph of the the two Mk 5/2's and the Mk 5 was taken. Another version of the photo can be found in the history of the RCAC which states that the tanks belonged to the Fort Garry Horse, the year was 1965, and the location was the rail marshaling yards at Iserlohn. (I should credit the photo to Lt-Col David Summers at this point.)

Now, can it be determined if any of the Centurions in the earlier photos have been equipped with an auxiliary 100-gal fuel tank? I understand that being fitted with one allowed the vehicle to have the appellation LR for 'long range.' I think the tanks in the marshaling yards may be so equipped, but not the one unloading from the transporter. Again, right or wrong?

As always, awaiting your wisdom.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Dan,

'LR' for 'Long Range' was a British designation, and I'm unsure if it was applied in Canada. It was not applied to Centurions so equipped in Australia.

The image of the 45-odd tanks at Fort B: the ones with a visible rear end are not fitted with the auxiliary armoured fuel tank. Neither is the tank in the colour image of the tank unloading.

Fitting took some work: welded on mounting pieces, new fuel lines, new four-pipe fuel tap for the 'three tank' configuration (an outlet and three selectable inlets). Unlike the mono-trailer, fuel was drawn directly from the auxiliary tank, and it could be selected from within the vehicle. The tank mod was available as a complete kit from the British Ministry of Supply.

The three tanks (a Mk.5 and two Mk5/2) visible on the train: the 'middle' Mk5/2 tank with the 105mm L7 gun is fitted with the auxiliary armoured fuel tank - you can see it protrudes behind the air louvres that normally are the 'back end' of the top of the tank. The infantry telephone, normally mounted vertically on the left side of the air louvre plate, can be seen mounted vertically on the left side of the auxiliary fuel tank. It is not possible to see if the other tanks are fitted with the 'LR tank'.

I've also noticed that they are all carrying an extra road wheel mounted on the rear left of the turret - the rim is visible above the top of the turret. This is the position where a set of three track links were normally mounted on tanks not fitted with IR and RMG, but it seems this unit at least changed that to a spare road wheel.

Mike C

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

Tonight I've selected a photograph of an Australian Centurion taken by a Michael Jenkin. It's entitled 'Standing Guard' and the comment attached to it says "Coomandook - Dukes Highway - Centurion Tank ARN 169042".

The website that I downloaded this from gives a detailed history of this vehicle, the Centurion and its service in Vietnam.

Now let's see if I've learned anything about the Centurion over this past week. This vehicle is armed with a 20-pdr Type B barreled main gun with at least three, if not four, counter weights welded to the fume extractor. (They appear to have been welded parallel and cross-ways to the barrel.)

The mantlet is not shrouded in a single piece of painted canvas like British and Canadian Centurions but has a closely fitting piece of canvas covering the main gun and exposing the co-axial machine-gun mount.

It's fitted with the 100-gallon auxiliary gas tank with the infantry phone fitted to its left side.

The barrel yoke, or crutch as you have referred to it, is open and leaning against the depression stop rail.

There is what appears to be an aperture inboard of the co-axial machine gun which may be for a .50-cal ranging machine gun.

There are two antenna mounts on the turret roof. I don't know if they are British or American type mounts.

Finally, as the turret reloading door is visible I would say that the forward bin box has been removed.

I would say it's a Mk 5 possibly with an RMG. What say you?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

Talk about making a bone move in my previous post. I've just found the site called 'centurion-mbt-two' wherein you provided the detailed history of the Centurion I featured in my previous post. It also has all of Michael Jenkin's photographs.

I guess I should've stuck to asking questions about Canadian vehicles instead of trying to show off.

Tomorrow I'll have some questions about uparmouring the glacis.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Mike Cecil]

No worries, Dan, happy to answer questions about Cents (the Australian usage has been something of a research project for many years).

I find my 'detailed histories' of individual Centurions popping up in all sorts of places, most without the courtesy of seeking permission and many without crediting me. I'm told by one website (that I do willingly write for) that the article I wrote on 169041, the 'Atomic Tank' as I dubbed it, has been viewed and copied/downloaded many thousands of times. I suppose I should take that as a compliment to the research effort it took to write it. The website you refer to is a particular 'vacuumer' of Cent info and images from all sorts of places.

169042 is indeed a Mk.5/1, but the Australian 'version' with .50 inch L6A1 RMG mounted in place of the .30 cal, which is moved to the right closer to the 20-pdr main armament. The three weights are all parallel to the barrel of the 20-pdr - they are to provide balance at the gun trunnions. Most Aust Cents with B type barrels have three weights, but as few as one large one and as many as 7 have been noted. The weights are not necessarily uniform in size. The extra weights are required to compensate for the additional weight of the combined 30-cal & RMG mount, RMG, and ammo. The RMG combined with the 20-pdr is unique to Australia. The Poms tested the concept of an RMG with that combination on a couple of tanks in the late 50s, then combined the RMG ONLY with the 105mm L7 for service use.

The Infantry tank telephone is indeed mounted to the left side of the auxiliary armoured fuel tank, but horizontally, not vertically. There are also some other aspects that are peculiar to Aust Cents, such as the brush guard in front of the gunner's sight. The radio setup is British: a Larkspur SW C42/B47 combination.

Regards

Mike C